Calling up Nationalized players?

[Fapuccino]

I would understand if Shaqiri feels more Swiss than Albanian

However, given further research, it seems he is proud of his racial roots in Kosovo and Albania, but that doesn't necessarily imply ethnic association

If he speaks Albanian or is Islamic, then it would be obvious, but I don't see any record of him maintaining ETHNO-CULTURAL roots

But if he is in fact playing for Switzerland as a career choice, Pimpin should remember that every individual has a right to autonomy; therefore Shaqiri has the right to treat the concept of nationality with an arbitrary amount of respect

Switzerland has 6 Albanian players, all born outside of Switzerland. All these of players' parents are Albanian, that's the language they speak at home, they come to visit their homeland, they still have family over in Kosovo. Behrami went to Switzerland at age 6, left at 16, and has been playing in Italy ever since. I'm sure he's a hardcore Swiss. That's the issue with Januzaj as well now. His father pretty much admitted the 2 choices are Albania for heritage, or Belgium for career. So even if he plays for Belgium it will be to further his career, and all Belgium is going to have in their hands is a mercenary.

We should cut the crap about footballers loving their "adopted" homes. 99% of footballers are mercenaries and they'll go wherever helps their career out more. To them a NT is nothing more than a stepping stone. Although in cases like Ozil, his family has 2-3 generations in Germany, and even though he's not ethnically German, that's where he grew up, his parents grew up, he has a way stronger bond than Behrami to Switzerland. When all your direct family still lives some place else, and you visit them the whole time, you still speak the language of that place, the signs of a mercenary become apparent.

As you said, a lot of people don't really understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality, or it seems even "racist" to have a concept like ethnicity. While in other places ethnicity is nationality because it transcends borders, it's about culture, language, ancestry, etc...

And Belgium and Switzerland are the only 2 countries in Europe without their own unique ethnicity, maybe they more inclined to let immigrants in their NT than others.

 

[pencilpal]

Switzerland has 6 Albanian players, all born outside of Switzerland. All these of players' parents are Albanian, that's the language they speak at home, they come to visit their homeland, they still have family over in Kosovo. Behrami went to Switzerland at age 6, left at 16, and has been playing in Italy ever since. I'm sure he's a hardcore Swiss. That's the issue with Januzaj as well now. His father pretty much admitted the 2 choices are Albania for heritage, or Belgium for career. So even if he plays for Belgium it will be to further his career, and all Belgium is going to have in their hands is a mercenary.

It's meaningless where they are born, when they've lived in Switzerland for their entire lives.

On Behrami, note that he moved to Southern Switzerland, which is heavily influenced by Italy. I'd argue that the culture of that region is closer to that of Italy than Germany or France (given the nature of Switzerland being cantonized, and thereby ethnically divided).

So I would maintain that he feels more Swiss than Albanian, especially because he hasn't lived in Albania for more than 15 years.

Again, racial connections are irrelevant compared to ethnic connections. And he can't be a "mercenary", because at the time he declared a Swiss nationality, the Switzerland NT was shit; therefore it wouldn't have been an especially beneficial career choice tbh.

Ffs Januzaj was born in Brussells, and regardless of whether he speaks Albanian, ethnicity is NOT dependent on his heritage. He has the autonomy to choose what country he feels more aligned to.

For a German Turk, they can still celebrate their Turkish roots, speak Turkish, and practice Islam, but feel aligned to Germany.

In the case of Januzaj, he has Belgian friends, speaks Belgian, and has lived in Belgium for all his life. He was born and raised in Brussells, so I see no reason for him not to choose a Belgian nationality.

We should cut the crap about footballers loving their "adopted" homes.

You may perceive the countries they are living in as adopted homes, but that is only from a purely racial perspective, because those countries ARE their homes. This is the nature of a multinational, multicultural state.

An Indian can feel Canadian in Canada. An Albanian can feel Belgian in Belgium. A Tunisian can feel French in France.

Similarly, in the case of both Taider and Belfodil, an Algerian can feel Algerian in France.

When all your direct family still lives some place else, and you visit them the whole time, you still speak the language of that place, the signs of a mercenary become apparent.

Your argument is that a second generation immigrant CANNOT feel ethnically aligned with the country they are living in, but this is COMPLETELY irrelevant. Familial ties do not determine ethnic ties.

Again, the differences between race and ethnicity should be made VERY clear.

 

[I4E]

You cunts still carrying on ?

 

[pencilpal]

You cunts still carrying on ?

You cunts still carrying on in the Down Under thread?

 

[Fapuccino]

Ethnicity implies a RECENT common ancestry, while race that is something almost obsolete and is something a lot more abstract, although somewhat related to ethnicity.

And let's take Januzaj for example. I think he left Belgium at 15 years old. He has 0 ties to Belgium whatsoever from now on. He plays the rest of his career in England and let's say he lives there until he's 40.

That's 25 years in England, and 15 in Belgium. Is he still more Belgium than English or Albanian? His family is in Kosovo, he visits them every year, he speaks Albanian at home.

Personally I've moved a lot around the world and I'll still move as much as I can. My nationality can and will change depending on the amount of time I spend in a country, but my ethnicity is constant.

 

[pencilpal]

Ethnicity implies a RECENT common ancestry, while race that is something almost obsolete and is something a lot more abstract, although somewhat related to ethnicity.

I'd advise you to re read my monograph on the previous page. Here's a relevant extract:

Ethnicity, on the other hand, is the affiliation or identity with a group of people bound by culture, language, religion etc; the trend is that people sharing an ethnicity possess similar racial bonds, but it is not an absolute characteristic

Note that I’m not saying that people with similar ethnicity possess similar race, just that there is a relation; in a practical context, you don’t necessarily need to be Ashkenazi to become Jewish, learn Hebrew/Yiddish, and follow general cultural customs; however, the general trend is that most Jews are Ashkenazi

And let's take Januzaj for example. I think he left Belgium at 15 years old. He has 0 ties to Belgium whatsoever from now on. He plays the rest of his career in England and let's say he lives there until he's 40.

That's 25 years in England, and 15 in Belgium. Is he still more Belgium than English or Albanian? His family is in Kosovo, he visits them every year, he speaks Albanian at home.

In his formative years, he was in Belgium. So I'd argue that he would still consider his ETHNICITY Belgian. Note that his heritage and race have NO bearing on the latter.

Not to mention that ethnicity and patriotism are purely subjective, and in this case are dependent on how Januzaj is affected by English culture.

Moreover, the example of Franck Ribery shows that there isn't an absolute ethnicity for every country, that an individual can exercise autonomy to create a personal variation.

This comes down to how race affects ethno cultural identity.

Personally I've moved a lot around the world and I'll still move as much as I can. My nationality can and will change depending on the amount of time I spend in a country, but my ethnicity is constant.

Regardless of whether or not that is true, one example is not enough to justify a generalization.

Keep that in mind.

 

[Fapuccino]

Again, racial connections are irrelevant compared to ethnic connections. And he can't be a "mercenary", because at the time he declared a Swiss nationality, the Switzerland NT was shit; therefore it wouldn't have been an especially beneficial career choice tbh.

Lmao. Before Behrami choose a NT, there was a lot of talk about him joining Albania, and it looked like the most likely possibility. But then the Swiss coach offered him a WC spot during the qualifying campaign.

The same with Boateng. You make it sound like he choose Ghana because he felt some sort of obligation towards them. He just wanted to play in the World Cup, and that was the case with Behrami.

100% mercenaries.

 

[pencilpal]

I don't think I'm going to post on this thread anymore, given that it's not REALLY about football

And I've already written enough to demonstrate my opinion, and why especially my monograph resolved this discussion completely

It seems to also be a controversial issue on the forum, and I don't want to get caught up in an argument not related to football

 

[Fapuccino]

Lmao did you just call Januzaj ethnically Belgian....Wow ok Im done. It's obvious you have no clue of what you're going on about. Ethnicity implies BLOOD. Forget the language, culture, that is secondary. Ethnicity is ancestry.

 

[pencilpal]

I'll reply once more, given that you only posted a minute before

"Lots of talk" does not illuminate his personal preference, nor does it really show who he would play for

The fact is that the Switzerland NT was shit, and it wouldn't have been a strong career move (which was your explanation for why he plays for the Swiss NT)

Not to mention that with Albania he was also offered a WC spot during the qualifying campaign, so that argument is irrelevant

Boateng declared for Ghana in 2009, BEFORE he was guaranteed a spot in the WC, and before the Ballack incident in the FA Cup that temporarily severed his relations with Germany

And it's clear as DAY he is not ethnically German; ffs he speaks Akan, despite never living in Ghana, and is a practicing Muslim

You've simply made a number of statements, but they lack ANY justification whatsoever

- - - Updated - - -

Lmao did you just call Januzaj ethnically Belgian....Wow ok Im done. It's obvious you have no clue of what you're going on about. Ethnicity implies BLOOD. Forget the language, culture, that is secondary. Ethnicity is ancestry.

You clearly know shit about ethnic geography

Re read my monograph, and understand that race is COMPLETELY different from ethnicity, and that the two are NOT related

If you use technical terms like ethnicity and race, you need to understand their distinctions and definitions

 

[jmaster]

it's not about where they were born, or how they feel, it's what they are. you're English, no matter if you were born in Japan for example, that doesn't make you Japanese, you're still English. why is that even being debated here?

 

[ScottishInter97]

I've enjoyed reading this thread, I must say...

Players called Aiden McGeady and James McCarthy both chose to play for Ireland over Scotland, it created a lot of controversy and both players with significantly abused because of it at away stadiums (McGeady played for Celtic, McCarthy a poor team called Hamilton).

Both players were born and bred in Scotland to parents who were born and bred in Scotland yet they chose to play for Ireland? not good in my opinion. McGeady was the star player at Celtic so I didn't hate him at all haha but I don't think I'd have liked him had he played for another team and done what he did.

 

[Dylan]

Both those cases were for career development though.




Also, thanks. If you could go ahead and develop some nice creative AM's for us that'd be cool

 

[Cal]

Career development?

 

[Dylan]

As in, playing for a better NT would help their career. No?

 

[Cal]

Drew you a diagram.

 

[Dylan]

Back then I'm talking about. I don't remember any diagram drawings myself for that, what, half decade, Ireland were above? More?

Time to go investigating I think.

 

[Dylan]

Using this month in order to give Scotland it's 2013 position let's go back a decade.
2003 Ireland 15th Scotland 50th
2004 Ireland 14th Scotland 77th
2005 Ireland 23rd Scotland 61st
2006 Ireland 49th Scotland 24th
2007 Ireland 35th Scotland 14th
2008 Ireland 36th Scotland 33rd
2009 Ireland 36th Scotland 46th
2010 Ireland 32nd Scotland 54th
2011 Ireland 21st Scotland 49th
2012 Ireland 36th Scotland 70th
2013 (October) Ireland 60th Scotland 35th


I think we can both agree over the last decade, Ireland has been the better NT Forza Off-topic

 

[Cal]

Please note that all the years bolded contained a tool in the managerial job, Vogts, Burley, Levein...

Also consider that McGeady may have a large impact on this considering he is better than the vast majority of both our sets of players. Especially considering actually the main thing scotland lacked over the last decade was good wingers.

 

[Zlat]

To the moron that said Zidane is French. Bullshit. You are a moron, end of story. Zidane is Algerian, both parents are Algerian, speaks Arabic, is a Muslim, and represents Algeria in Ads, and other things.

Stfu on things you know nothing about?