Brescia - Inter (29 Oct 19) [1-2]

[brehme1989]

Ok sure well, such a system doesn't exist. Systemic racism does.

Besides, you are missing the point. Are footballers players a disadvantaged population?

Now you're falling exactly in the "trap" that the people doing all this shit also argue.

Black football players that get this kind of abuse are usually from just two kinds of players.

First is high profile ones, the "respect" one.
The second is the asshole category. Think Messina's Zoro, the guy who almost killed Obafemi Martins with 2 tackles in a row (and a 3rd one after the whole incident) and was being very aggressive overall that our fans got pissed at him and started doing this shit. If he remained unnoticed, nothing would have happened as it doesn't happen with anyone you cannot really name.

Now the first category is what you would call a privileged person. Regardless of ethnic background or whatever, these people are far better off than your average ultra or casual fan.

So if in your mind this is an individual thing, then it applies, with the cookie cutter method of course, to everyone else who does what you call a "systemic problem".
No one is philosophizing about global problems and shit. It's just a spoiled rich player in their eyes and it's the best way in their view to get to him.

In the average Italian family all they talk about is the blasphemies involved at football stadia. For decades. It's still there, people go to the stadium to vent.

 

[Glass box]

Ok sure well, such a system doesn't exist. Systemic racism does.

Besides, you are missing the point. Are footballers players a disadvantaged population?

Really and who decides what can be put into a system? If you ask me the call to put violent hands on someone doesn't really need some system, it threatenes one specific individual.

How I am missing your point? You are mixing everything. Racism, death threats, slavery, players being or not "disadvantaged population" and what not. You think that everything is so simple as to be put into a "system"? Come on man.

 

[Wobblz]

I don't think we should be rationalising that shit in any shape or form. Brehme's rants are like comparing rape to a murder. Like, "rape is kinda bad but hey, murder seems like a somewhat worse option, don't you think?". Yeah man, sure, but you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any of that shit yourself so why do you expect other people to be cool with it?

 

[brehme1989]

Except this is just coming out of nowhere.

I never said practice A is acceptable because practice B is not. That's not even in a stupid child's thought process. I'd guess.

I keep saying the same thing over and over. We have two bad situations that occur, but people only bother to care about the lesser one. That is called double standards. But if you wanna follow your process in order to understand this by oversimplification, that's like saying rapists need to be sent to rot in Alcatraz but murderers are less of a problem for us so we'll just ignore them until they shut up since dead guys don't have feelings and we need to provide consolation to those affected by the other crime anyway.... As if this is a popularity contest and the more "support" you show to the popular one the better you will look to your peers.

Sorry, but this is getting beyond ridiculous.

 

[Wobblz]

No, the thing you're doing is diluting and downplaying the significance of one behaviour by presenting another, equally disgusting, behaviour.

I mean, why would you even try to red herring the racial problem? There's also famine in the world - why should we bother with racism?

Your whole line of thinking sound apologetic and I don't think that's acceptable. I don't care "why" people are doing it or what other shit they do, neither do players of colour, and we all should want this shit to cease once and for all so we can all focus on what's going on the pitch for a change.

 

[brehme1989]

Exactly.

But why can you focus on the game when people chant "die motherfucker" but you cannot focus on it when monkey chants are made?

You saw the game, you saw the match thread. How many people were genuinely bothered by the Balotelli abuse?
Then compare it to the Verona incident and see the difference in media reaction as well as the people. Even yourself, you completely ignored this and your input during the match thread regarding Balo was to tell him to "get fucked". Would you have changed your mind if you knew he was being mentally torn by the death chants? Up to you to decide...

It's not me who's downplaying shit. It's the opposite. I'm asking why are death chants downplayed when racial provocations are overstated each time? It's not like we seem to care about the same shit that goes on in Spain or England regarding the very same problem.

 

[militoscores]

brehmes a nazi wtf

 

[Jane The Virgin]

The amount of time and examples brehme gives to justify the monkey chants it is quite disturbing to say the least...

Telling a black dude in a heat of the moment "mate suck a dick" apparently is worse than calling him the n word... Right brehme?

Because how can one dare to tell a straight dude to suck a dick? Meaning you want that person to get raped... Like wtf... How is the n word worse than a rape?


^this is you brehme... Seriously starting to believe you're a closet Nazi

 

[Wobblz]

It's not me who's downplaying shit. It's the opposite. I'm asking why are death chants downplayed when racial provocations are overstated each time? It's not like we seem to care about the same shit that goes on in Spain or England regarding the very same problem.

Nothing should be "downplayed" or "overstated" in that context. You're trying to separate the inseparable. Racism, wishing someone's death and we can add to the geographic thing with Southern Italy and Napoli in particular with the Vesuvio and cholera chants, etc. That shit is just lame.

Personally, if I was black, I probably wouldn't give two shits about any chants aimed at me. As I already said, a great way to deal with that kind of behaviour is to just brush it off - like Dani Alves did by eating the banana that was thrown at him. Just as I wouldn't put too much weight on some fag wishing my death or chanting about my city burning - I'd fuck them up on the pitch in return.

Now, some people react in a different way. Players like Balo and Koulibaly seem extremely upset, you have to understand that racism isn't just "banter" and "venting off" it's systemic and part of daily life in some countries where there's a lot of minorities. Those guys are probably reminded of all the times they were treated like shit in daily life just because their skin colour and it must hurt quite a lot. I don't know what's going through their minds but as a decent human being I don't want to see people get bullied by some morons that were probably the way they are because of bullying themselves.

The sooner we get rid of that shit the better.

 

[GenDire]

Now the first category is what you would call a privileged person. Regardless of ethnic background or whatever, these people are far better off than your average ultra or casual fan.

So if in your mind this is an individual thing, then it applies, with the cookie cutter method of course, to everyone else who does what you call a "systemic problem".
No one is philosophizing about global problems and shit. It's just a spoiled rich player in their eyes and it's the best way in their view to get to him.

In the average Italian family all they talk about is the blasphemies involved at football stadia. For decades. It's still there, people go to the stadium to vent.

I appreciate the reply, but you've once again performed some linguistic gymnastics to avoid responding directly to my argument. I laid it out in the traditional philosophical format so that it is simple and easy to respond to.

Here it is again:

Premiss:
a)Racism underpins a global system that disadvantages people based on their skin colour.
b)Racist chanting perpetuates the ideal of racial inferiority (dark skin = subhuman), and so contributes to this global system.

Conclusion:
c)Racist chanting merits an outcry more severe than death threat chants.

So which one do you think is not justified, a) or b)? Does c) not follow from a) and b)?

It's completely irrelevant whether the players are privileged or not, see the above to understand why racist chanting is worse than death threats. It's equally irrelevant that "no one is philosophizing", intent≠effect.

- - - Updated - - -

Really and who decides what can be put into a system? If you ask me the call to put violent hands on someone doesn't really need some system, it threatenes one specific individual.

How I am missing your point? You are mixing everything. Racism, death threats, slavery, players being or not "disadvantaged population" and what not. You think that everything is so simple as to be put into a "system"? Come on man.

Mate, sorry but you've not understood what I'm saying at all. No one "decides" anything, it's just the way things are, have a google of "systemic racism" to see what I mean. If you have a look at the argument I laid out, it will be easier to understand what I'm talking about. I'm not mincing or mixing anything.

 

[Glass box]

- - - Updated - - -



Mate, sorry but you've not understood what I'm saying at all. No one "decides" anything, it's just the way things are, have a google of "systemic racism" to see what I mean. If you have a look at the argument I laid out, it will be easier to understand what I'm talking about. I'm not mincing or mixing anything.

Just "the way things are"? Okay then, I'm humbled by this enlightenment that verbal abuse comes above the threat of physical integrity just because things are the way they are.

Now I understand.

For a fact you did mix up stuff, you put threats, racism, some random notion that the players are not "unprivileged" and slavery in one basket. Nevermind, I can see that you are adamant about your systems and google search.

 

[GenDire]

Just "the way things are"? Okay then, I'm humbled by this enlightenment that verbal abuse comes above the threat of physical integrity just because things are the way they are.

Now I understand.

For a fact you did mix up stuff, you put threats, racism, some random notion that the players are not "unprivileged" and slavery in one basket. Nevermind, I can see that you are adamant about your systems and google search.

First off, we are talking about death threat chanting at the stadium as compared to monkey chants. By "the way things are", I'm talking about systemic racism, which refers to a system of oppression based on skin colour. It's not that people somehow decide that this is the case, as you said.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but it doesn't feel like you are trying to understand what I'm saying. Which part of the argument above doesn't make sense or seems like a "random notion" to you, a,b, or c?

 

[brehme1989]

Nothing should be "downplayed" or "overstated" in that context. You're trying to separate the inseparable. Racism, wishing someone's death and we can add to the geographic thing with Southern Italy and Napoli in particular with the Vesuvio and cholera chants, etc. That shit is just lame.

Personally, if I was black, I probably wouldn't give two shits about any chants aimed at me. As I already said, a great way to deal with that kind of behaviour is to just brush it off - like Dani Alves did by eating the banana that was thrown at him. Just as I wouldn't put too much weight on some fag wishing my death or chanting about my city burning - I'd fuck them up on the pitch in return.

Now, some people react in a different way. Players like Balo and Koulibaly seem extremely upset, you have to understand that racism isn't just "banter" and "venting off" it's systemic and part of daily life in some countries where there's a lot of minorities. Those guys are probably reminded of all the times they were treated like shit in daily life just because their skin colour and it must hurt quite a lot. I don't know what's going through their minds but as a decent human being I don't want to see people get bullied by some morons that were probably the way they are because of bullying themselves.

The sooner we get rid of that shit the better.

Agreed completely here.

But the initial point stands. This discussion started exactly because nobody gave a shit about Balotelli receiving "death chants" even if he was obviously upset about it. You yourself played along by telling him to "get fucked" because his reaction irritated you. It was just another game as usual.

I'll even demonstrate you how these double standards take place:
http://forzainterforums.com/showthr...-(29-Oct-19)&p=1873381&viewfull=1#post1873381

El Duccio posts a picture of Balotelli giving our fans (who were singing "se saltelli muore Balotelli") and the first reply to that post, with 14 "thanks" attached to it was:

Does this really still upset any Inter fan? I never take Balotelli seriously.

Then a fellow Italian member mentioned this:

I was at the stadium yesterday and must say that I understand his reaction (even though it might cost him a few games ban). He was insulted and jeered at by our fans throughout the match. I didn't partake in any chant against him firstly because I'm a gentleman (even though I may have occasionally insulted Brescia, its population and half the female relatives of their players during the course of the evening) and secondly because it's been 10 years since that famous incident. We still won that game (and the cup), he fucked off and wasted his career. Couldn't we just forget about him and move on?

You can follow the discussion from the link anyway, it's just a couple of pages back.

But no one gave a shit. Balotelli was insulted by every means possible, except racial abuse, and everyone was clapping along saying what a faggot he is and how it is his fault for receiving said abuse. But if our fans dared to go another way, they'd be the assholes of the story and not Mario? Like Verona? What if the Verona fans did exactly the same as our fans and his reaction was the same by kicking the ball and wanting to leave the stadium? What would people be saying then? That it's his fault that he's hated?

If you don't see the reaction involved here as double standards then there's nothing more I can do. It's too darn obvious.

I also find it hilarious that I may be the only person on FIF who sort of likes Balotelli yet I'm some sort of hater of his in here

 

[GenDire]

If you won't respond to my argument I can only conclude that you can't defend your position coherently.

And if you can't do that, you should give it a rest when it comes to the "double standards" between the chants we are talking about.

 

[brehme1989]

No I can respond to your comment just fine, but it's going to be too much and too off topic.


I'll just leave you to the fact that your premise is wrong and that you're missing the point. We can have the rest of the conversation via pm if you wish though.

 

[Wobblz]

Agreed completely here.

But the initial point stands. This discussion started exactly because nobody gave a shit about Balotelli receiving "death chants" even if he was obviously upset about it. You yourself played along by telling him to "get fucked" because his reaction irritated you. It was just another game as usual.

My actual quote is "On another note Balo is shit. Get fucked"... It was a couple of pages before the middle-finger picture and aimed at his point blank attempt on goal he missed.

"You yourself played along by telling him to "get fucked" because his reaction irritated you." - not at all, you are twisting my words and taking them out of context to further your argument, which isn't cool. The context of the situation is clearly visible by the comments directly above and below mine.

I'll even demonstrate you how these double standards take place:
http://forzainterforums.com/showthr...-(29-Oct-19)&p=1873381&viewfull=1#post1873381

El Duccio posts a picture of Balotelli giving our fans (who were singing "se saltelli muore Balotelli") and the first reply to that post, with 14 "thanks" attached to it was:

I'm not sure everyone is operating with the same information as you do. I saw that picture, again, out of context, and with no explanation given though that he was just phased he didn't win or something. Don't want to be anyone's lawyer but that's probably how most people registered it. I'm not aware of any chants during our game against Brescia, although it wouldn't surprise me that our ultras would abuse him in some way.

Generally speaking Balo is an ingrate and everything he does will be taken with a "fuck you" attitude. Let's not forget what he did while he was playing for us - throwing the jersey, wearing the rival's one and joining them after, albeit being skyrocketed to (temporary) stardom by non other than Inter. Seeing him giving the finger to our fans doesn't surprise me and it didn't even cross my mind he had a legitimate reason to do it. All in all I saw the picture and I wasn't even interested to know the bigger picture.

But no one gave a shit. Balotelli was insulted by every means possible, except racial abuse, and everyone was clapping along saying what a faggot he is and how it is his fault for receiving said abuse. But if our fans dared to go another way, they'd be the assholes of the story and not Mario? Like Verona? What if the Verona fans did exactly the same as our fans and his reaction was the same by kicking the ball and wanting to leave the stadium? What would people be saying then? That it's his fault that he's hated?

There's a differentiation we have to make here. Racially abusing players is, funnily enough, non discriminatory. They are hated on because they are black, or Asian, Jewish or whatever. Hating on a single player is a bit different, you have to agree. Balo being booed and jeered is alright, even wishing his death would be somewhat unimportant as nobody would actually follow through with the threat. Racial abuse on the other hand is a very widespread and real thing applicable to many many players, hence the outcry. It happens a lot more often and a lot more players are affected, as a group.

If you don't see the reaction involved here as double standards then there's nothing more I can do. It's too darn obvious.

I also find it hilarious that I may be the only person on FIF who sort of likes Balotelli yet I'm some sort of hater of his in here

There might be a double standard, I agree, but then again, as I said, one is targeted at an individual, the other is targeted at a whole group of people, so it's only normal one gets more attention than the other. Isn't that what is bothering you - the imbalance of reactions? If I was an ass to some people and they are mad at me and trying to verbally get me then nobody would really get on my side, if they are offending me for something I had no control over, like being Arab or Jewish for example, then a lot more people would recognise themselves in that situation and support me. People would start recognising it as a problem, as a group, and they would take action over time.

 

[Native]

Balo reading this thread with a fat smile on his face.

He's done it again.

 

[GenDire]

No I can respond to your comment just fine, but it's going to be too much and too off topic.


I'll just leave you to the fact that your premise is wrong and that you're missing the point. We can have the rest of the conversation via pm if you wish though.

Sure, if you are at all amenable to changing your mind.