Brescia - Inter (29 Oct 19) [1-2]
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10 years of FIF
Nostradamus
Most Passionate MemberIt's far more acceptable than monkey chants...
It is...
Really sad to see such an intelligent poster repeatedly defend monkey chants across multiple threads
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10 years of FIFNostradamusMost Passionate MemberI'm not defending shit. I just dislike it when people are impulsive and don't think over things without filters.
Wishing someone or his family members to die should be the ultimate insult. Period.
Making it sound like the end of the world because Italians do not behave like Americans is plain ridiculous in comparison. It's a country where "racist jokes" are part of everyday conversation. Something that also applies to probably more than half of the world's population. Yet when it comes to the one thing that is truly a universal sin, nobody bats an eye.
And this Balotelli business has been going on for over 10 years, starting from Juventus fans. Nobody said anything until they once said "there are no black Italians" and did monkey chants. This was actually a couple of years after they started wishing him death everytime he touched the ball.
So please, don't give me these double standards. Get priorities straight or at least say that for you it's better to wish someone to die than to provoke him through a physical difference.
Agree, bro
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Should get banned.
I agree.
And maybe it would be if centuries of global oppression, discrimination, and segregation based on skin colour somehow never happened.
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10 years of FIFNostradamusMost Passionate MemberNot by the Italians buddy.
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Were people earlier in this thread arguing that racism is worse than death threats? I skimmed a bit and didn't see that. Is a death threat worse than a racism insult? Sure, death threats are more severe but in the context of what happened at the game and keeps happening (in Italy and elsewhere) that's a glib point. Why are you using that to downplay that a whole crowd of people were using race to dehumanize a professional while he's doing his job?
Not for centuries, but Italy was absolutely a colonial power. Educate yourself.
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10 years of FIFNostradamusMost Passionate MemberLol colonial power. Okay dude. Maybe you need to educate yourself
As for the whole thing, not a soul here will say that this is some good thing and that it should be preserved as some sort of ultras ritual. It's a terrible practice but it's not that much different from other terrible practices.
If we find acceptable to wish deaths and diseases to players and their families or to cities/regions, volcanoes to wash away entire populations and call every female of opponents' families as prostitutes, all these because it's "part of the game" and players should "man up", then sorry, it either should apply for everything or then every thing should be entitled to have the same level of outcry.
The fact is, this is an international forum and in today's world that just means it's part of the Anglosphere influence as all things internet are, and all relevant taboos must translate as if the entire world hangs by their nuts.
Long story short, monkey chants are not acceptable, but when more serious shit happens I don't see the same outcry here. We had like over 30 pages of stuff after Cagliari and after Koulibaly. I'm pretty sure there's going to be more interest in Kiko Casilla than "muore Balotelli" if it wasn't surrounded by racist chants.
There were probably just 5 posts in the infamous "devi morire" incident of Fiorentina v Cagliari when the guy actually died... Now you tell me why is that.
Just because you probably can relate to one thing, it doesn't make it more serious than other things. There are different cultures and not just one exactly because they are formed by collective experiences and not by a common rulebook.
As for the whole thing, not a soul here will say that this is some good thing and that it should be preserved as some sort of ultras ritual. It's a terrible practice but it's not that much different from other terrible practices.
If we find acceptable to wish deaths and diseases to players and their families or to cities/regions, volcanoes to wash away entire populations and call every female of opponents' families as prostitutes, all these because it's "part of the game" and players should "man up", then sorry, it either should apply for everything or then every thing should be entitled to have the same level of outcry.
The fact is, this is an international forum and in today's world that just means it's part of the Anglosphere influence as all things internet are, and all relevant taboos must translate as if the entire world hangs by their nuts.
Long story short, monkey chants are not acceptable, but when more serious shit happens I don't see the same outcry here. We had like over 30 pages of stuff after Cagliari and after Koulibaly. I'm pretty sure there's going to be more interest in Kiko Casilla than "muore Balotelli" if it wasn't surrounded by racist chants.
There were probably just 5 posts in the infamous "devi morire" incident of Fiorentina v Cagliari when the guy actually died... Now you tell me why is that.
Just because you probably can relate to one thing, it doesn't make it more serious than other things. There are different cultures and not just one exactly because they are formed by collective experiences and not by a common rulebook.
Something you are not grasping is that football is a game being viewed on the global stage.
Allowing racist chanting on the global stage perpetuates systemic oppression that disadvantages people the world over, and so it must not be tolerated and thus warrants a commensurate outcry.
Does wishing death on a player contribute to a global system where players are killed by vigilante hooligans?
No, and so it doesn't warrant the same outcry.
This is completely irrelevant (and very debatable). Even conceding this point, let's look at things objectively.
Hopefully this simple thought experiment can clear up the difference for you:
Say we have a country that openly practices slavery and another country that does not. Is it okay for the country that doesn't practice slavery to act on the global stage as if slavery is acceptable? Would it be okay for them to perpetuate the ideals of slavery because they don't practice it themselves?
Allowing racist chanting on the global stage perpetuates systemic oppression that disadvantages people the world over, and so it must not be tolerated and thus warrants a commensurate outcry.
Does wishing death on a player contribute to a global system where players are killed by vigilante hooligans?
No, and so it doesn't warrant the same outcry.
This is completely irrelevant (and very debatable). Even conceding this point, let's look at things objectively.
Hopefully this simple thought experiment can clear up the difference for you:
Say we have a country that openly practices slavery and another country that does not. Is it okay for the country that doesn't practice slavery to act on the global stage as if slavery is acceptable? Would it be okay for them to perpetuate the ideals of slavery because they don't practice it themselves?
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10 years of FIFNostradamusMost Passionate MemberIt seems that you agree indirectly that the outcry outweighs the ethical standpoint based on the feelings of some people around the world rather than the actual weight it has.
At the end of the day, the outcry is due to the feelings of the player on the receiving end and not what the rest of the world thinks about it. But since this is a negative marketing thing in some areas of the world, we have an enhanced outcry instead of doing a proper weighting of the issues at hand. Because all of these bear grievances but you want the most "popular" one to outweigh everything else. Which was my initial point to begin with. People care more about monkey chants than death chants. And to me that's absurd. For you it's not.
No point in going further here as personal biases get in the way and it will turn political for no apparent reason.
At the end of the day, the outcry is due to the feelings of the player on the receiving end and not what the rest of the world thinks about it. But since this is a negative marketing thing in some areas of the world, we have an enhanced outcry instead of doing a proper weighting of the issues at hand. Because all of these bear grievances but you want the most "popular" one to outweigh everything else. Which was my initial point to begin with. People care more about monkey chants than death chants. And to me that's absurd. For you it's not.
No point in going further here as personal biases get in the way and it will turn political for no apparent reason.
Not at all, here's what I posted again
The outcry isn't based on the feelings of the player but due to the work that the chanting does in perpetuating the ideals of racism. It seems that this is what you disagree with, and if you can't see how not condemning monkey chants in global sport would perpetuate an idea of darker players as subhuman, I don't know what to tell you.
I notice that you didn't engage with the rest of my argument at all, your entire post comes across as deflection.
It's you that's not doing the proper weighting of the issues, which is why you cannot respond to the very simple argument that I layed out for you.
This is why people care more about monkey chants than death chants: death chants do not perpetuate a regressive system of discrimination based on skin colour
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10 years of FIFNostradamusMost Passionate MemberI'm not saying there is no issue, I'm saying that talk about taking a human life outweighs any action that just reduces it out of whatever the person/people doing it have in mind. I think it's quite simple.
I don't care what some guy in Antarctica feels about the issue just because it's brandished on some e-tabloid as a scandal.
What I care about is that people are okay with Balotelli being sent death wishes as long as he doesn't get a monkey chant. That's the whole gist of it. The fact that nobody bats an eye for Balotelli being sang "die motherfucker" but if instead our fans would do what the Veronese did, we'd have 30 pages here.
I don't care what some guy in Antarctica feels about the issue just because it's brandished on some e-tabloid as a scandal.
What I care about is that people are okay with Balotelli being sent death wishes as long as he doesn't get a monkey chant. That's the whole gist of it. The fact that nobody bats an eye for Balotelli being sang "die motherfucker" but if instead our fans would do what the Veronese did, we'd have 30 pages here.
Neither do I, and that isn't relevant in the slightest.
Imo, this sentence that you wrote isn't simple at all
P)"I'm saying that talk about taking a human life outweighs any action that just reduces it [death chants?] taking out of whatever the person/people doing it have in mind[unsettling a player?]."
Anyway, I'll try to keep this as simple and plain as possible.
Does wishing death upon a player perpetuate a regressive system? No.
Does monkey chanting? Yes.
Again, have a look at my very simple thought experiment:
Say we have a country that openly practices slavery and another country that does not. Is it okay for the country that doesn't practice slavery to act on the global stage as if slavery is acceptable? Would it be okay for them to perpetuate the ideals of slavery because they don't practice it themselves?
You can easily substitute slavery for racism, they are based on some of the same principles
Anyway, I'll try to keep this as simple and plain as possible.
Does wishing death upon a player perpetuate a regressive system? No.
Does monkey chanting? Yes.
Again, have a look at my very simple thought experiment:
Say we have a country that openly practices slavery and another country that does not. Is it okay for the country that doesn't practice slavery to act on the global stage as if slavery is acceptable? Would it be okay for them to perpetuate the ideals of slavery because they don't practice it themselves?
You can easily substitute slavery for racism, they are based on some of the same principles
Wishing death on a player can also perpetuate a system when people think it's okay because someone did it before? And the system thing is not here that matters the most, because the very threat to one, particular person is dangerous and criminal by itself.
Ok sure well, such a system doesn't exist. Systemic racism does.
Besides, you are missing the point. Are footballers players a disadvantaged population?
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If you rationalize the problem, then I can understand Brehme. What is worse 'wishing death upon someone or racism'? It would be a nice philosophical discussion.
Like it has allready been said the influence of wishing death is more of an individual case, while on the other hand many people can relate to the racism Lukaku, Balotelli, Koulibably,...experienced. This is why there is such an outcry.
Unless you have a different view regarding being part of a 'disadvantaged population'?
Like it has allready been said the influence of wishing death is more of an individual case, while on the other hand many people can relate to the racism Lukaku, Balotelli, Koulibably,...experienced. This is why there is such an outcry.
It does not matter if football players are in a disadvantaged position or not. Having lot's of money doesn't outweigh self-esteem and respect.
Unless you have a different view regarding being part of a 'disadvantaged population'?
You've almost grasped the point but not quite. The outcry isn't just because "many people can relate to it", it's because racism is bigger than football.
Of course it matters, in the context we are talking about. I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible since people don't seem to be getting it.
In the spirit of "philosophical discussion":
Premiss:
a)Racism underpins a global system that disadvantages people based on their skin colour.
b)Racist chanting perpetuates the ideal of racial inferiority (dark skin = subhuman), and so contributes to this global system.
Conclusion:
c)Racist chanting merits an outcry more severe than death threats.
Now that I've laid out the argument in it's bare bones and simplest form imaginable, I'd love to hear which part of it you disagree with. Especially since this leaves no room for "personal bias or politics" to somehow appear @brehme