The Suning Commerce Group

[ADRossi]

I am not quite sure if our forum allows talking about political economy, which is basically about different lines between the state and market. Feel free to delete this post if needed.

China's lines are some where closer to the state, making the country a kind of state capitalism (if the lines are closer to the market, then you have a neoclassical model, auto-equilibrium market, so to speak, and if they are in the middle, we are talking about developmental regulatory models)

And Chinese state capitalism is not only about the state heavily regulated economic activities (both supply/demand) but depending on circumstances, 'crony capitalists', those who align their business with state purposes, have to contribute quite actively to specific state demands. My sister and her husband own a small factory in China, and recently, they are often 'politely' asked to donate money to their local government (often tens of thousands of dollars). And good lord, they have so many difficulties locating these expenses on the balance sheet.

This kind of practices has been escalating with Xi, who is speaking the old language of building a 'revolutionary' China (the rejuvenation rhetoric amidst the Taiwan crisis). And if my economic history is correct, a 'revolutionary China' would require a totalising 'national economy' (you can always google the Great Leap Forward).

The implication, from a political economic standpoint, is that money from a big crony capitalist like Sunning to Inter would be heavily monitored and repurposed. My sense is that our owner does not lack money to maintain the club, the problem is that they need good 'justification' to spend their money at Inter. How do they fit Inter in the larger scheme of things?

I agree with the premise of your post, which is that Suning are primarily unable to inject money into Inter because of the Chinese government. However, is Suning doing well financially? Definitely not. The government had to bail them out during the pandemic. So when you have Zhang relying on government intervention in his primary business, it's not much of a leap to assume the government is dictating how he runs Inter, in the financial sense.

I posed the question a couple months ago, but I wonder to what extent the government is not letting Suning sell Inter (versus Zhang not wanting to).

 

[brehme1989]

The pile of debt Suning is in and the amounts required at Inter are not really connected to the degree people here assume.

If they cared about Inter, they could definitely finance the club in the grand scheme of things. The RoI probably wouldn't be prudent enough, but it's just not that. It's not about whether or not Suning cares. It's not about whether or not they have money or the will.

Their money is pretty much China's money. That's where it ends. The government of China does not care about Inter. And currently Zhang and Xi aren't best buddies either, so even if Zhang wanted to ask a favor, it's not possible. And this is like the 3rd time we face this issue under Suning's control. So a @Anne Marie alludes, we're basically dependents of China, and not Zhang.


Let's just agree to stop personalizing our ownership and understand that we're pretty much a state investment that they no longer care about and we'll all stop imagining that baby Zhang is running anything other than away from a situation he's probably not personally fond of back at home.


Getting money out of China for foreigners was hard enough all these years, for the Chinese it's become much harder.

 

[Pimpin]

I am not quite sure if our forum allows talking about political economy, which is basically about different lines between the state and market. Feel free to delete this post if needed.

China's lines are some where closer to the state, making the country a kind of state capitalism (if the lines are closer to the market, then you have a neoclassical model, auto-equilibrium market, so to speak, and if they are in the middle, we are talking about developmental regulatory models)

And Chinese state capitalism is not only about the state heavily regulated economic activities (both supply/demand) but depending on circumstances, 'crony capitalists', those who align their business with state purposes, have to contribute quite actively to specific state demands. My sister and her husband own a small factory in China, and recently, they are often 'politely' asked to donate money to their local government (often tens of thousands of dollars). And good lord, they have so many difficulties locating these expenses on the balance sheet.

This kind of practices has been escalating with Xi, who is speaking the old language of building a 'revolutionary' China (the rejuvenation rhetoric amidst the Taiwan crisis). And if my economic history is correct, a 'revolutionary China' would require a totalising 'national economy' (you can always google the Great Leap Forward).

The implication, from a political economic standpoint, is that money from a big crony capitalist like Sunning to Inter would be heavily monitored and repurposed. My sense is that our owner does not lack money to maintain the club, the problem is that they need good 'justification' to spend their money at Inter. How do they fit Inter in the larger scheme of things?

Nah they're broke

 

[brehme1989]

WBA Ownership Structure - Action For Albion

This diagram shows the worrying complexity of the ownership structure of West Bromwich Albion. Owned in part by the Chinese State.

www.actionforalbion.co.uk

Not the wrong thread by any means

 

[Ethor]

" Will you walk into my parlour"...... holy smokes!

 

[Superminion]

The pile of debt Suning is in and the amounts required at Inter are not really connected to the degree people here assume.

If they cared about Inter, they could definitely finance the club in the grand scheme of things. The RoI probably wouldn't be prudent enough, but it's just not that. It's not about whether or not Suning cares. It's not about whether or not they have money or the will.

Their money is pretty much China's money. That's where it ends. The government of China does not care about Inter. And currently Zhang and Xi aren't best buddies either, so even if Zhang wanted to ask a favor, it's not possible. And this is like the 3rd time we face this issue under Suning's control. So a @Anne Marie alludes, we're basically dependents of China, and not Zhang.


Let's just agree to stop personalizing our ownership and understand that we're pretty much a state investment that they no longer care about and we'll all stop imagining that baby Zhang is running anything other than away from a situation he's probably not personally fond of back at home.


Getting money out of China for foreigners was hard enough all these years, for the Chinese it's become much harder.

What's the point of Chinese state buying inter under the disguise of suning name and not doing anything with their ownership of it? Like what's the plan and end goals? Buy inter, loan money from Americans bank, next step, world domination?

 

[brehme1989]

What's the point of Chinese state buying inter under the disguise of suning name and not doing anything with their ownership of it? Like what's the plan and end goals? Buy inter, loan money from Americans bank, next step, world domination?

I don't know the point or whatever, but we are indeed owned by the Chinese state, being the Ultimate Beneficiary Owner, of any Chinese enterprise that does business abroad.

The question is why they're complicating their structures this much. Which I don't have the answer to.

 

[CafeCordoba]

When Inter was bought, China wanted to invest in football. Ownership of clubs in Europe, stadiums built and then of course their own league. But all that changed when they decided to stop it. And Inter is like collateral damage of that decision.

 

[brehme1989]

It's naive having people say that Suning this and Zhang that... as if it were an actual owner and not a front they'd care much about adding 200m in losses to "sportswash" their image, using a corporation that deals in tens of billions.

There's an easy answer as to why it's not happening. It's not really their money. When you have to ask for permission to spend, it kinda defeats the point of claiming it's yours to begin with.

Our main problem is that they seem to have bad relations with the government, otherwise the kid wouldn't stick like glue here and they'd sell already.

 

[andrei]

When Inter was bought, China wanted to invest in football. Ownership of clubs in Europe, stadiums built and then of course their own league. But all that changed when they decided to stop it. And Inter is like collateral damage of that decision.

Which other clubs were bought by chinese, except Inter and Milan? I believe Wolverhampton, but I am not sure.

 

[.h.]

Which other clubs were bought by chinese, except Inter and Milan? I believe Wolverhampton, but I am not sure.

Milan? :d

 

[brehme1989]

Which other clubs were bought by chinese, except Inter and Milan? I believe Wolverhampton, but I am not sure.

Atletico Madrid

Wolves, yes.
Birmingham is also owned by China. Aston Villa as well, but they sold to an Egyptian.
I think Reading, too, is owned by the Chinese.

Milan was behind their backs, which is why it failed spectacularly. Wasn't really "The Chinese".

Slavia Praha was another.

I think they also got partial ownership of Manchester City at some point, nor sure if it was ever bought out. There are several English clubs still with Chinese minority ownership.


Their strategy was to typically buy a football club in countries where they wanted to increase their stronghold. The UK was an obvious choice. They failed miserably in Italy because it has a vastly different culture than your normal "western democracy". The French are also a bit nutty, so they avoided that.
Germans aren't for sale, neither are the Dutch. So they tried to go to Central Europe, the UK and the big leagues. Think they held a stake at Granada in Spain at one point.



I'm not including NewCity Capital as that's an American business, the frontman just happens to be of Chinese background, but often is mistaken in Europe as a Chinese venture.

 

[wera]

both my clubs will be fucked by the chinese

 

[ADRossi]

both my clubs will be fucked by the chinese

Milan and Inter?

 

[Capo]

It's naive having people say that Suning this and Zhang that... as if it were an actual owner and not a front they'd care much about adding 200m in losses to "sportswash" their image, using a corporation that deals in tens of billions.

There's an easy answer as to why it's not happening. It's not really their money. When you have to ask for permission to spend, it kinda defeats the point of claiming it's yours to begin with.

Our main problem is that they seem to have bad relations with the government, otherwise the kid wouldn't stick like glue here and they'd sell already.

Its suning money, they just need the government to give them permission to take it out of the country. I assume Ma and the Zhangs are more liberal in their thinking and would have some very choice words with the CCP if they could.

Nevertheless, Suning (Zhangs) are hamstrung. High interest rates on a loan with Oaktree with no real possibility to refinance or payback the loan it will lead to someone conglomerate getting Inter at bargain price. The problem we have with that, is an owner looking to count pennies rather than one that was to flash his ego and make a splash aka PSG/City and Chelsea (Roman and the new ownership)

 

[Adriano@10]

It's naive having people say that Suning this and Zhang that... as if it were an actual owner and not a front they'd care much about adding 200m in losses to "sportswash" their image, using a corporation that deals in tens of billions.

There's an easy answer as to why it's not happening. It's not really their money. When you have to ask for permission to spend, it kinda defeats the point of claiming it's yours to begin with.

Our main problem is that they seem to have bad relations with the government, otherwise the kid wouldn't stick like glue here and they'd sell already.

Thing is if their relationship with the CCP was this bad or if what you re saying was true inter would have been sold already.. The ccp does not want inter neither does it need inter.
ATM no matter how good your relationships with the CCP you wont get money out of china to finance a football club...

 

[.h.]

https://football-italia.net/inter-cut-losses-by-millions-after-impressive-champions-league-campaign/

This article suggests we will close 70-80mil in losses for the season.

 

[Harpsabu]

https://football-italia.net/inter-cut-losses-by-millions-after-impressive-champions-league-campaign/

This article suggests we will close 70-80mil in losses for the season.

What the fuck!?! How still so many losses. We are doomed.

 

[.h.]

What the fuck!?! How still so many losses. We are doomed.

I hope that factors in the liability from sponsorship non payment, if so that is 25-30mil by itself.

 

[Harpsabu]

I hope that factors in the liability from sponsorship non payment, if so that is 25-30mil by itself.

Even at that, how could we be running at such a huge expense? How much is our wage bill?

I seen during the week since Suning took over the number of staff on inters payroll has went from like 120 to over 600 people. Is that all needed?? Though that's drop in the ocean stuff.