Asian Cup 2015
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10 years of FIFI'll say my thing just once. The only team that were hard done by were Spain. Italy and Portugal have nothing to complain about.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/01/world-cup-25-stunning-moments-italy-south-korea
The only argument I could shake out of that article is that they conceded, therefore they deserved to concede. And that they played "outdated" defensive football and Trappatoni is an "outdated" manager. It only talked about Italy as well.
Too many uncalled fouls to count, a goal unfairly deemed offside, and a ridiculous red card can completely change the outcome of any match. The article also noted that this gave Korea had the "psychological advantage" which we all know is the important thing to have in a world cup match. The fact Italy should have nonetheless won despite the refereeing errors does not mean that the refereeing errors did not happen, although I think it's hopeful to think Italy could have won with the referee's clear bias.
South Korea's run to the semifinals was a complete and utter disgrace.
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10 years of FIFI'm not going to be an idiot and say there were no errors. Probably the biggest one was the red card to Totti. And there were fouls that went unpunished. But you make it sound like all the errors were systematically against Italy. Totti and Vieri could've easily been sent off earlier for their blatant elbowing, including one that broke Kim Taeyoung's nose. And the offside 'goal'? First of all, it was a 50-50 call that could've gone either way – it wasn't blatantly onside, which is what you're implying. Second, the 'goal' was 'scored' after the whistle blew and Korea's defenders and goalkeeper didn't bother stopping Tommasi. If your definition of a disallowed goal is one that is scored after everyone else on the pitch stops playing, then I can't help you.
From the article which you apparently didn't read:
Who should have won? I'll give you a hint – the team with less possession, less shots, less chances, less corners wasn't Korea. Did the referee force Italy to park the bus despite having a far more formidable attacking force? Did the referee force Vieri to miss an open goal from a few meters out that could've won it in normal time? When you decide to wait out a one-goal lead, you make the margins much more smaller. And that's not the referee's fault.
I've already acknowledged Spain should've won. And I don't know what you have to say about Portugal. The two red cards were completely deserved.
It wasn't 2 or 3 bad fouls though. It was more like ten. You're saying that Italy did bad stuff too. Maybe, but that doesn't cancel out the Korea was much worse. Attacking Totti whenever he had the ball, kicking Maldini in the fucken head, and assaulting the Italy player who was on the counterattack directly after that incident. Then you say the offside call could have gone either way. Anyone can say that about any offside call, but I disagree because of the context. Considering an unjustified red card and the precedence for bias in refereeing of the Italy tie (how can anyone say that Moreno did a good job aside from the card is fuckin beyond me), what happened in the Spain game (that you even acknowledged was wrong), and Korea hosting the finals, I don't think it was the "simple casual mistake" you make it out to be.
I read the article. But I strongly disagree with what the "Italian" wrote. And that's just a common tactic in journalism. To bring an "Italian" to say Italy wasn't good.
First you're saying Korea had better statistics, therefore they deserved to win. Statistics never show the full story especially because Italy plays defensive football. Also, the argument I'm making is that the match, which can be represented to an extent with numbers/the statistics you're citing, was affected by the refereeing errors. So your defense sidesteps what this discussion is actually about.
Secondly, you're saying Italy screwed up crucial opportunities. How is that relevant to the refereeing errors that gave Korea a sporting and mental advantage in the match? The fact Italy should have won does not mean the errors did not take place.
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10 years of FIFI brought in the Italian because 1) he sums up what I'm saying better than I can and 2) I know that you specifically would be skeptical if I brought in a Korean or no source at all.
Ahn kicked Maldini because he was in the box and trying to shoot. Not because he was trying to send Maldini to the hospital, which is what you're implying. Brave of Maldini to make a challenge into a dangerous area like that, and unfortunate that things like this happen, but you can't have been surprised if a defender takes a kick to the head while making a diving challenge in the box against a striker.
bandiera, don't act like Italy "maybe" had some awful fouls. Italy were just as dirty, with plenty of hacking and flying elbows. That's what happens when poor refereeing lets the game get out of control. I hate resorting to YouTube videos like this that are probably made by nationalist zealots, but have a look yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag0MZCr4-ys. If Moreno were really out to get Italy, he would've sent off Vieri and Totti very early in the match.
So now you are saying that context and other games determines what's a good offside call or not? Personally, I would think that the actual call itself would determine what's a reasonable call, but maybe we just see things differently.
Btw, you still haven't told me how Portugal were robbed.
Statistics to support my argument, not make it. Sitting on a one-goal lead is always going to carry risks. Italy were tactically outmaneuvered by Hiddink. But how were the statistics I brought up affected by errors? Did a refereeing error lead to Panucci's miscued clearance that resulted in the equalizer? Did refereeing errors force Italy to give up possession? Did refereeing errors allow Maldini to be outjumped by Ahn for the golden goal?
I don't bring this up to prove that errors didn't exist. Never made that argument, don't know why you say I did. I bring it up to say that refereeing errors did not lose the game for Italy, Trapattoni's defensive tactics did. Against an inferior team quality-wise, Trapattoni should've been sealing the victory. Instead he parks the bus. That's where the game lost, not whether or not Tommasi had his silly 'goal' disallowed.
I'm not implying anything like that. But kicking a player in the head is a foul. Just like a hand ball is a foul, intentional or not.
Disagree. You're saying that if FIFA was biased, they would have given every call pro Korea or no calls pro Korea. Well we also had some favorable calls when Juve was running the show in Calciopoli, and Facchetti had some connections with the refs too. Thing is Juve had many more favorable calls, and Juve fans like to say Inter was dirty too so it cancels out. It doesn't.
I still think Korea was much worse after watching that video. Things should also add up. Italy had an offside goal disallowed, an unfair red card, the same shit happened vs Spain (which you have admitted), compounded by the fact Korea was hosting the WC? not a coincidence. same thing happened for germany and brazil when they hosted, although to a much smaller degree.
Also, Italy's fouls were largely penalized, while Korea's fouls went unpunished. though you're right, i dont think it happened for portugal.
Wings, you're misquoting me. I'm not saying it wasn't called offside because the refs were biased in other games. I'm saying that you can say it could have gone either way, but it went in one way that compounds with the clear pro-Korea bias throughout the tournament. Again, you can say the same things for some of Inter's offsides during calciopoli.
You said Italy and Spain have nothing to complain about. Saying that "Korea deserved to win" despite the referee bias is like how Juve fans say they "deserved to win all those titles" despite their referee bias. Those calls against Italy also give Korea a massive mental advantage, which is very important in a tournament like the world cup.
lets just agree to disagree here though. I won't continue this discussion after you reply because i think we both understand each others points.
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10 years of FIFThat was bad shit.
Ehh? Italy had plenty of unpunished fouls. Did you see the game? The whole game's on YouTube, you can watch it. Italy have just as many unpunished fouls, the biggest ones being the elbows.
I find it odd that you go from saying Italy had no fouls --> Italy "maybe" had some fouls --> Italy had fouls, but they were penalized. Not to mention that you go from calling Portugal a victim to admitting they weren't.
'The same thing happened in Germany and Brazil.' Maybe it's match-fixing. Or maybe it's home advantage. There's psychological evidence that referees are swayed by massive home support. Combine that with a shoddy referee like Moreno, it's not unbelievable that some errors result. Referees are only human.
The offside 'goal' is circular logic. You're letting the accusation decide the evidence. "How do we know it was a bad call? Bias. How do we know there's bias? There was a bad call."
I never said Spain have nothing to complain. Said the complete opposite, actually. And I stick by my statement, because what Juventus did was systematic, intentional cheating on a massive scale over an extended period of time. That adds up. But if you're saying that errors in ONE game resulted in Vieri missing an easy winner, then I've got nothing. (Btw, I know you've criticized fans on this very forum who blame referees after we've played like shit. Same deal here – errors don't cancel out the fact that Italy chose the wrong strategy).
Disagree. Italy had less unpunished fouls, and Korea's were far worse and in many more numbers.
When did I say Italy had no fouls? Or that it's a possibility they had fouls? When I said "maybe", I was just acknowledging the fact they made fouls. And I never said Portugal was a victim. You're putting words in my mouth.
That's a bit of a fringe theory. You're basically saying any decision that goes the way of the home team is just home advantage. So all the errors that happened at the Juventus stadium and the Olimpico di Torino were just home advantage, right? Or maybe FIFA, with a long history of corruption, gives a nudge to the hosts to make more money.
No, that isn't what i said. You're saying it could have gone either way. I said you can make those arguments for any offside call, including the ones that went for Juventus against Inter.
I'm also saying it went one way, and curiously that one way compounds with the angle of the referee throughout the match. You're looking at every bad call as an isolated incident, when that's not what they were.
Hmm, I did say you said Spain have nothing to complain about. Sorry about that. Funnily enough I also said you agreed that there were bad calls in the Spain match. That was sloppy from me.
And I agree, it's wrong to blame referees after we've played like shit. I never said Italy would have won without the bad calls, even though I may feel it's likely given that the game was on the ropes until extra time.
however, theres a limit. if korea just got a penalty vs italy, then its wrong to scapegoat that as the reason for losing. but tens of serious calls going korea's direction including a red card and an uncalled offside goal is a bit too much to ignore. But again, I never said any of that. On the other hand, I know that if Zanetti got kicked in the head during a UCL knockout stages match and the referee did nothing, and Eto'o was then man handled on the counter attack, I'd be fucking pissed.
Once more, saying that "Korea deserved to win" despite the referee bias is like Juve fans saying they "deserved to win all those titles" despite their referee bias. It's still bias. Then you're saying it's one game so it isn't biased. It's actually two knockout stage matches in the FIFA World Cup. I also never said those errors in those matches MADE Vieri miss an easy winner, I don't know why you're saying that. I'm saying the errors existed and they intentionally helped Korea. I'm also saying that you can't say what would have happened without those bad calls when the game was on the ropes for so long.
Wings, you misquoted me a lot in that last reply. That was completely unnecessary.
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10 years of FIFWhat? Last time I checked, the word 'maybe' meant a possibility. I wasn't aware that 'maybe' now refers to definite facts.
You're right, you didn't say anything about Portugal. My apologies.
Italy had elbows. Korea kicked a player's head. I don't see how you vindicate Italy because you think that their fouls were somewhat less worse. A foul's a foul's a foul.
Believe what you like. It's definitely much more than a fringe theory, and not unreasonable either. For some reason, you keep harping on all the nasty shit that Juventus did. Yes, Juventus fucking cheated, and I'm glad they got sent down to Serie B. But because Juventus cheated, you think all home advantage is match-fixing? Why do teams in general win more at home than away? Match-fixing, or maybe this "fringe theory" is more than just a theory.
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If you think that one red card in extra time and a 50-50 offside 'goal' that was scored after the goalkeeper and defender stopped playing are "a bit too much to ignore," I can only imagine the outrage that must pour through your head when you watch the loads of football you claim.
Do you know why I keep bringing up Vieri? Because if he had not missed that easy winner, we would not be having this discussion right now. Italy would've moved on, Korea would've been given some patronizing compliment on a gutsy performance, and Moreno would be little more than an afterthought.
But instead, because Vieri missed and Italy were knocked out, it's now suddenly all the referee's fault. It's the referee's fault that Italy were intimidated and psychologically scarred, it's the referee who let the dirty Koreans kick the innocent Italians out of the match, it's the referee who sent off poor Totti. Suddenly, it's not that Italy played poorly or had abysmal finishing. Suddenly, Italy couldn't have done anything to fight this evil referee. It's a fucking loser mentality.
Want to know something interesting? Check out match reports of Italy-Korea before the Spain game. Most non-Italian reports criticize Trapattoni for his defensive tactics and point to that as to why they lost. It was only after the Spain game that the narrative changed.
I count the Portugal thing...and what else? The fact that you misused the word 'maybe?'
First of all, I don't know why you're using such a harsh and aggressive tone. Completely unnecessary.
When did I "vindicate" Italy? Again, why are you putting words in my mouth? You're talking about Korea kicking Maldini's head like it's the only foul they made in that game vs Italy elbowing a Korean player. Fact is South Korea had many more fouls and very favourable calls going their way.
It is definitely a fringe theory and I won't take it seriously because it can be used so arbitrarily. I keep harping on Juventus because the logic you're using is similar to the logic Juventus fans use to justify Calciopoli. Just to clarify, I'm not comparing you or Korea with a Juventus fan or Juventus. Also, I never said teams that play at home win because of matchfixing. You're throwing away the context of my point (that defines the argument) in order to reduce it to absurd proportions.
I didn't say only the one red card and the offside goal are too much to ignore; even though it really is too much to cast aside (how can you write off being a man down and a goal down in a knockout stage world cup match), when you compound that with what happened in the Spain game, Korea hosting the world cup, and FIFA's precedent of favors to Germany and Brazil when they were playing at home. However, I said that the goal and the card plus the context, AND the countless uncalled violent fouls from Korea (out of many, the notable ones were Maldini kicked in the head, Totti assaulted a number of times, Zambrotta's legs taken out, and also an Italy counterattack where Tommasi had his shirt pulled and his legs taken out) are all too much to ignore, which is true.
Whether or not we would have had this discussion because of popular opinion is completely irrelevant. And once again, you're misquoting what I'm saying! I never said Italy would have won without the calls. That's not relevant. I'm saying the erroneous calls were there, and they were intentionally and wrongfully in korea's favor. Also, I think you can't say what would have happened without those bad calls when the game was on the ropes for so long. Saying that "Korea deserved to win" despite the referee bias is like Juve fans saying they "deserved to win all those titles" despite their referee bias.
Playing "defensively" is always labelled as the go-to mistake when a defensive team loses with non-italian papers. most british commentators and even newspapers ignorantly compound any sort of defensive style from an italian team as catenaccio and think it's "bad football" to park the bus, which is wrong. And the fact they stopped saying that after the spain game is relevant. The dots started to connect. It's like a Juventus fan that says that "in the first few games Juve was cheating, everyone else was saying AC Milan and Inter lost against them because they were worse. But only after it happened again did the public narrative change."
When did I "vindicate" Italy? Again, why are you putting words in my mouth? You're talking about Korea kicking Maldini's head like it's the only foul they made in that game vs Italy elbowing a Korean player. Fact is South Korea had many more fouls and very favourable calls going their way.
It is definitely a fringe theory and I won't take it seriously because it can be used so arbitrarily. I keep harping on Juventus because the logic you're using is similar to the logic Juventus fans use to justify Calciopoli. Just to clarify, I'm not comparing you or Korea with a Juventus fan or Juventus. Also, I never said teams that play at home win because of matchfixing. You're throwing away the context of my point (that defines the argument) in order to reduce it to absurd proportions.
I didn't say only the one red card and the offside goal are too much to ignore; even though it really is too much to cast aside (how can you write off being a man down and a goal down in a knockout stage world cup match
), when you compound that with what happened in the Spain game, Korea hosting the world cup, and FIFA's precedent of favors to Germany and Brazil when they were playing at home. However, I said that the goal and the card plus the context, AND the countless uncalled violent fouls from Korea (out of many, the notable ones were Maldini kicked in the head, Totti assaulted a number of times, Zambrotta's legs taken out, and also an Italy counterattack where Tommasi had his shirt pulled and his legs taken out) are all too much to ignore, which is true.Whether or not we would have had this discussion because of popular opinion is completely irrelevant. And once again, you're misquoting what I'm saying! I never said Italy would have won without the calls. That's not relevant. I'm saying the erroneous calls were there, and they were intentionally and wrongfully in korea's favor. Also, I think you can't say what would have happened without those bad calls when the game was on the ropes for so long. Saying that "Korea deserved to win" despite the referee bias is like Juve fans saying they "deserved to win all those titles" despite their referee bias.
Playing "defensively" is always labelled as the go-to mistake when a defensive team loses with non-italian papers. most british commentators and even newspapers ignorantly compound any sort of defensive style from an italian team as catenaccio and think it's "bad football" to park the bus, which is wrong. And the fact they stopped saying that after the spain game is relevant. The dots started to connect. It's like a Juventus fan that says that "in the first few games Juve was cheating, everyone else was saying AC Milan and Inter lost against them because they were worse. But only after it happened again did the public narrative change."
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10 years of FIFVery ironic you're accusing me of an unnecessarily harsh and aggressive tone.
I say 'vindicate' because you've consistently implied that Italy's fouls either 1) didn't occur or 2) were punished. Both of which are obviously not true. Regardless of individual words, the point you're making is: Italy were far less dirtier and overshadowed by Korea's dirtiness, no?
Fringe theory? Then what on earth could explain the advantage that home teams have had in every tournament since the sport was invented? Magic?
And arbitrarily? Aren't you sort of arbitrarily using the Juventus example to prove the matches were fixed?
I didn't say only the one red card and the offside goal are too much to ignore; even though it really is too much to cast aside (how can you write off being a man down and a goal down in a knockout stage world cup match
Whether or not we would have had this discussion because of popular opinion is completely irrelevant. And once again, you're misquoting what I'm saying! I never said Italy would have won without the calls. That's not relevant. I'm saying the erroneous calls were there, and they were intentionally and wrongfully in korea's favor. Also, I think you can't say what would have happened without those bad calls when the game was on the ropes for so long. Saying that "Korea deserved to win" despite the referee bias is like Juve fans saying they "deserved to win all those titles" despite their referee bias.
Literally all the examples of fouls you mentioned (except Maldini's head) happened to Korean players. And those went unpunished.
I don't deny the importance of a red card and the 'goal' (again, why do you keep calling it a goal when it was scored long after the whistle was blown?), but red card errors and especially wrong offside calls happen all the time, World Cup or not. Those two incidents are hardly unusual or cause for suspicion.
And while you never said that Italy would have won without the calls, it's not that different when you say that the errors were the cause for Italy's defeat. Forgive me for assuming, but I don't think what I implied is too far of a stretch.
Playing "defensively" is always labelled as the go-to mistake when a defensive team loses with non-italian papers. most british commentators and even newspapers ignorantly compound any sort of defensive style from an italian team as catenaccio and think it's "bad football" to park the bus, which is wrong. And the fact they stopped saying that after the spain game is relevant. The dots started to connect. It's like a Juventus fan that says that "in the first few games Juve was cheating, everyone else was saying AC Milan and Inter lost against them because they were worse. But only after it happened again did the public narrative change."
Let me say this: your logical process is self-feeding.
You assume: the matches are fixed. That's why Italy lost.
I say: those kinds of errors happen.
You say: we know those aren't just errors, because we know that the matches were fixed.
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10 years of FIFI think the word compound seems to be very popular in this page lel. Italy's mistakes were compounded by their inability to break down the mighty korean defense. Full stop.