The Suning Commerce Group

.h.

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Suning retail has nothing to do with Inter..... We are owned by (several) holdings companies, at some point if you peel back the onion, you find one called Suning Holdings, which is a part owner of Suning retail, but Suning Retail has NO INTEREST AT ALL in Inter.
 

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.h.

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Zhang is the ultimate beneficial owner of Inter. Suning are not. No part of our ownership line goes to Suning retail, at all. Unless you want to somehow argue that a sporting company which is owned 100% by a guy who isnt even the largest shareholder in some retail company actually means that the retail company is the beneficial owner of Inter (which they're not).

To draw a simple analogy


If Elon Musk had a company called Musk Holdings Ltd,

Musk Holdings Ltd owned 20% of Tesla

and 100% of Blue Bird Holdings

and Blue Bird Holdings held 100% of Twitter

You wouldnt say Tesla is a beneficial owner of Twitter. They're unrelated, just happen to have some common ownership.


the slight confusion is that "Musk Holdings" is actually a company called "Suning Holdings", but if you get past that 'illusion' of naming, the analogy works. Suning Holdings is one of the number of companies that owns shares in Suning.com and Suning Retail, but that's all.


Twitter - > Bluebird Holdings -> Musk Holdings aka "Twitter Holdings" -> Musk

Twitter Holdings is a separate legal entity from Twitter, it just happens to be a beneficial owner of twitter.
 

brehme1989

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Dude, stop preaching the wrong song.

Suning = Zhang
Zhang = Suning

That's who everyone talks about.
No one cares about shareholder composition. The UBO is (allegedly) Zhang. Even if in reality the UBO Is the Chinese Communist Party...
For both Suning and Inter.

So Suning = Zhang = 'the Chinese"

Fascinating to see someone try to convince people that a Chinese entity has the same organization structure as a US or European corporation...
 

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Honestly, I find that pretty offensive, ignorant as to how China and the world actually works, and I'm not really willing to go down that rabbit hole. I find it quite offensive as someone who IS chinese and grew up in the region, as well as fuck ass ignorant.

Infact, fuck it, you're going back on the blocked list. Managed a couple of years with you off it, but you're just toxic yet again. Peace. Shame the admins here wont do anythign about the toxicity that is killing this forum.
 

brehme1989

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Yes, let's be less toxic and celebrate Juventus sportsmanship and compare Inter legends and Inter teams to whatever scrubs we see on tv... that's how you beat toxicity. Let's dance around a rainbow as well while we pretend that our owners are just part of a complicated business setup with a holding company in Luxembourg that has nothing to do with China because we're Chinese and we don't like it when people talk about our way of doing business... you for real?
 

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Honestly, I find that pretty offensive, ignorant as to how China and the world actually works, and I'm not really willing to go down that rabbit hole. I find it quite offensive as someone who IS chinese and grew up in the region, as well as fuck ass ignorant.

Infact, fuck it, you're going back on the blocked list. Managed a couple of years with you off it, but you're just toxic yet again. Peace. Shame the admins here wont do anythign about the toxicity that is killing this forum.
The toxicity has nothing to do with Brehme and everything to do with the predicament of our shit club, its owners, and the ineptitude of our management.

Capitulating to Juventus without a whimper at home in front 80,000, the team's general inconsistency, and the ownership situation is why so many posters are sick and tired and fed up.

Your posts about the club's ownership are a fucking wank.
 
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To be clear, I also want a change of ownership. It's not like I've been sat here defending Inzaghi, the team, etc.... But that doesnt excuse frankly racist, xenophobic, ignorant posting about the club's ownership
 

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To be clear, I also want a change of ownership. It's not like I've been sat here defending Inzaghi, the team, etc.... But that doesnt excuse frankly racist, xenophobic, ignorant posting about the club's ownership

Apart from your "I'm Chinese" argument, you haven't really said much that disproves any of that.
So I'd stop playing the racism card here when all you're doing is submitting to your own bias.


You don't even have to be an expert in East Asian finance to understand how the CCP holds Inter hostage under Suning, all you have to do is read how Zhang stopped spending money when Xi tells him "no more money in football ". How can you even argue here and have the audacity to talk about xenophobia :lol:
 

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Yes, let's be less toxic and celebrate Juventus sportsmanship and compare Inter legends and Inter teams to whatever scrubs we see on tv... that's how you beat toxicity. Let's dance around a rainbow as well while we pretend that our owners are just part of a complicated business setup with a holding company in Luxembourg that has nothing to do with China because we're Chinese and we don't like it when people talk about our way of doing business... you for real?
Tbf, when it's come to financial & accounting stuff, @.h. is clearly way more knowledgeable than you're.
 

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To be clear, I also want a change of ownership. It's not like I've been sat here defending Inzaghi, the team, etc.... But that doesnt excuse frankly racist, xenophobic, ignorant posting about the club's ownership
How likely is our debts (oaktree & others) lead to bankruptcy?
 

brehme1989

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Tbf, when it's come to financial & accounting stuff, @.h. is clearly way more knowledgeable than you're.

I'll give him accounting. British accounting practices that is.

When it comes to finance and especially global finance, sorry dude. You're way off. Just because I don't spend time to put on a teacher face on finance in a sports forum doesn't mean that a guy who doesn't do anything else in this place is the right man for the job.
 
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.h.

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How likely is our debts (oaktree & others) lead to bankruptcy?
Bankruptcy as in Inter being wound up as an asset, fire sold, and properly going bankrupt like Fiorentina, Parma, etc did and having to be refounded?

I very much doubt it, but I wouldnt categorically say its 0%. I'd say its probably like, 1-3%, very small world possibility stuff but not entirely off the realm of feasible. Like, "auditors should mention it as a risk, but its not one anyone really expects to materialise".

Irrespective of whether our rumoured price is 1 billion including debt or 1 billion excluding debt, there's clearly at least some perceived net equity in the business. Recurring revenues, Serie A rights, etc - if you stripped out player base and reduced cost to cover 500 mil in debt, there's probably still a few hundred mil in net equity in the business (I'd guess?). Clearly owning our own stadium would be transformational, but alas

A default on the loans, leading to creditors being awarded Inter? To me, right now, that feels pretty damn likely. I dont see the willpower from Zhang to sell the club really - it's hard to say if its just a general lack of demand for Inter [irrespective of the buying price, you'd still have to inject like a bunch of cash to right the ship, then OpEx we need like 100m a year injection just to cover the baseline running of the business], Serie A [lets be blunt, its a stale league that isn't going anywhere anytime soon], or if it's their unreasonable price.


I really struggle to see how Zhang can get themselves out of this mess - it would, probably, take some unbelievable soar of Suning's stock market performance, paying out major dividends to shareholders - they're still heavily loss making, so they're a long way from being able to do anything of the scale required. It'd also need a change in CCCP policy, which feels extremely unlikely at the moment especially after the Russian-Ukranian war and the resulting sanctions on Russian wealth overseas. Or significant existing overseas assets, which as far as I know, they dont have either. With some amazing deals (eg sponsorship, reducing player costs a bit), they might be able to solve the "inter loses money every year" problem, but then you have the pile of debt question to address as well. And to achieve that while keeping a competitive team (which obviously links to sponsorship, prize money, TV revenue, etc) is damn hard.


Honest view - either a sale at a discounted price (anything that's above the loan fees is some kind of net cash to Zhang), or Oaktree taking us over feel the most likely. The question, though, is why would Oaktree want to take over Inter? Running a sporting club isn't really their pedigree as far as I'm aware, infact I'd love to even know if their business model is to, for companies they own, bring in their own management team etc. From a quick browse on their wikipedia page it looks like they do sometimes take full ownership, but rarely, they're more of a joint venture company.

All that being said, I said the same things about Elliott and Lee and that's exactly what happened there.
 

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Bankruptcy as in Inter being wound up as an asset, fire sold, and properly going bankrupt like Fiorentina, Parma, etc did and having to be refounded?

I very much doubt it, but I wouldnt categorically say its 0%. I'd say its probably like, 1-3%, very small world possibility stuff but not entirely off the realm of feasible. Like, "auditors should mention it as a risk, but its not one anyone really expects to materialise".

Irrespective of whether our rumoured price is 1 billion including debt or 1 billion excluding debt, there's clearly at least some perceived net equity in the business. Recurring revenues, Serie A rights, etc - if you stripped out player base and reduced cost to cover 500 mil in debt, there's probably still a few hundred mil in net equity in the business (I'd guess?). Clearly owning our own stadium would be transformational, but alas

A default on the loans, leading to creditors being awarded Inter? To me, right now, that feels pretty damn likely. I dont see the willpower from Zhang to sell the club really - it's hard to say if its just a general lack of demand for Inter [irrespective of the buying price, you'd still have to inject like a bunch of cash to right the ship, then OpEx we need like 100m a year injection just to cover the baseline running of the business], Serie A [lets be blunt, its a stale league that isn't going anywhere anytime soon], or if it's their unreasonable price.


I really struggle to see how Zhang can get themselves out of this mess - it would, probably, take some unbelievable soar of Suning's stock market performance, paying out major dividends to shareholders - they're still heavily loss making, so they're a long way from being able to do anything of the scale required. It'd also need a change in CCCP policy, which feels extremely unlikely at the moment especially after the Russian-Ukranian war and the resulting sanctions on Russian wealth overseas. Or significant existing overseas assets, which as far as I know, they dont have either. With some amazing deals (eg sponsorship, reducing player costs a bit), they might be able to solve the "inter loses money every year" problem, but then you have the pile of debt question to address as well. And to achieve that while keeping a competitive team (which obviously links to sponsorship, prize money, TV revenue, etc) is damn hard.


Honest view - either a sale at a discounted price (anything that's above the loan fees is some kind of net cash to Zhang), or Oaktree taking us over feel the most likely. The question, though, is why would Oaktree want to take over Inter? Running a sporting club isn't really their pedigree as far as I'm aware, infact I'd love to even know if their business model is to, for companies they own, bring in their own management team etc. From a quick browse on their wikipedia page it looks like they do sometimes take full ownership, but rarely, they're more of a joint venture company.

All that being said, I said the same things about Elliott and Lee and that's exactly what happened there.

Wouldn't Oaktree make pretty easily a profit on their investment by immediately putting club on sale considering they would acquire the club for just 270m?
 

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Wouldn't Oaktree make pretty easily a profit on their investment by immediately putting club on sale considering they would acquire the club for just 270m?
Yeah, good point, potentially, but that's what I thought Elliott would do as well tbh. That being said it doesn't really seem their style, looking at their track record I'd expect them to look at bringing in some managers and selling after 2-3 years if they can put together a solid plan for massive revenue increase/line of sight to revenue increase. Eg if they think they can sort out stadia approval, secure financing on favourable terms, wipe out our debt, and invest just enough to be consistently CL quarters for example, you could probably 2x your return on the business

Someone highlighted another potential but scary option - we are doing payment in kind with Oaktree so conceptually the loan could be continually extended with ever increasing amounts. That's the scariest one because it could lead to negative equity and bankruptcy, and also doesn't get Zhang out of Inter.

This also needs to be considered against the backdrop of legal troubles, eg courts in Hong Kong trying to rule if they have hidden assets.

The whole thing is a mess, I really hope they just sell soon and make it clean for the fans. I can understand ish why they've clung on this long but past this summer would be ridiculous
 

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Wouldn't Oaktree make pretty easily a profit on their investment by immediately putting club on sale considering they would acquire the club for just 270m?
In theory yes, but they'll still have to find a buyer that can pass the vetting and till then they may have to pump some of their own money, put their people in etc

It's unknown if they want to keep the team till a stadium deal is reached, flip it immediately, stick around to see if they can make the club profitable, get us listed to the Stock Exchange or if they'll just ignore the fact that they have just took over a football club and have it at the bottom og their priorities.

Oaktree is mostly known as a distress fund, so you'd expect they'll line up several potential suitors at a discount rate, but we don't know who may end up getting the club after that.
Maybe they want to lead in the Italian distressed market which is kinda big for Europe and use the club as the flagship, who can tell?
 

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Suning retail has nothing to do with Inter..... We are owned by (several) holdings companies, at some point if you peel back the onion, you find one called Suning Holdings, which is a part owner of Suning retail, but Suning Retail has NO INTEREST AT ALL in Inter.
We had this discussion before not gonna engage again...
The point here is that up untill two days ago they prominently featured a link to the Interstore and they sold official inter gear.. They took that all off their site might be something might be nothing
 

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Yeah, good point, potentially, but that's what I thought Elliott would do as well tbh. That being said it doesn't really seem their style, looking at their track record I'd expect them to look at bringing in some managers and selling after 2-3 years if they can put together a solid plan for massive revenue increase/line of sight to revenue increase. Eg if they think they can sort out stadia approval, secure financing on favourable terms, wipe out our debt, and invest just enough to be consistently CL quarters for example, you could probably 2x your return on the business

Someone highlighted another potential but scary option - we are doing payment in kind with Oaktree so conceptually the loan could be continually extended with ever increasing amounts. That's the scariest one because it could lead to negative equity and bankruptcy, and also doesn't get Zhang out of Inter.

This also needs to be considered against the backdrop of legal troubles, eg courts in Hong Kong trying to rule if they have hidden assets.

The whole thing is a mess, I really hope they just sell soon and make it clean for the fans. I can understand ish why they've clung on this long but past this summer would be ridiculous
I also fear the scenario where Zhangs want to extend the Oaktree deal. With even better terms, for Oaktree.

About the stadium, I've been almost certain that any sale is connected to stadium deal sealed and signed. Before that, nothing's gonna happen (well, default to Oaktree still might). It could be even easier for the Americans to co-operate regaring the stadium project with another Americans (Milan) against the city council. Americans have money so the funding wouldn't be the issue. Or more like, the proof of funds wouldn't be the issue. I've read reports that Milan have grown anxious over the Cathedral project because of the uncertainty of Inter ownership. Which is a direct dagger to Zhangs, which is a correct analysis by them.

Feels also a chicken-egg problem, Zhangs want to sell with the stadium deal signed but that deal could be signed easier with new owners, not with Zhangs.
 

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I also fear the scenario where Zhangs want to extend the Oaktree deal. With even better terms, for Oaktree.

About the stadium, I've been almost certain that any sale is connected to stadium deal sealed and signed. Before that, nothing's gonna happen (well, default to Oaktree still might). It could be even easier for the Americans to co-operate regaring the stadium project with another Americans (Milan) against the city council. Americans have money so the funding wouldn't be the issue. Or more like, the proof of funds wouldn't be the issue. I've read reports that Milan have grown anxious over the Cathedral project because of the uncertainty of Inter ownership. Which is a direct dagger to Zhangs, which is a correct analysis by them.

Feels also a chicken-egg problem, Zhangs want to sell with the stadium deal signed but that deal could be signed easier with new owners, not with Zhangs.
100%. That being said I wonder if Milan can really afford to float the capital for a stadium alone atm given the cost of debt currently.

I feel like Zhang are just refusing to make a decision, which is the worst decision really. This is a situation where a sale would be good, finding a minority investor to clear debt would be good, putting in place some framework for Oaktree to take us over would also be good. Instead it feels like we are in a burning house and choosing to stay seated to see if the fire brigade show up
 

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we are 2nd in the league.... and the easiest route out of to the semi final of the champions league..... other than winning the league 2 seasons ago. This is a better place than we have been in for 13 years.

stop complaining people.

If they sell the club hopefully someone good comes that wants to make us Euro contenders and not a feeder team to a more profitable EPL or MLS team.
 
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