Quarter Final: Brazil - Belgium

thoriq_r9

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If this match had been played 10 times, Brazil would have won 8 of them. Very unlucky for them. It is always going to be difficult to contain Lukaku, Hazard, and Dr Bruyne on the counter when chasing the game. Miranda particularly did well on Lukaku and limited their opportunity. They really missed Casemiro's dominance in that DM spot. Fernandinho was awful, reminding me of Felipe Melo's performance on Brazil's WC 2010 exit against the Netherlands. The better team lost today.
Now, our last hope of continuing the Inter WC final tradition lies on Croatia. Guess I'll be rooting for them to win out.
 

brehme1989

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Brazil's midfield consisted of Paulinho and Fernandinho and Gabriel Jesus was their main striker. Remove any EPL or video game bias you may have, and let that sink for a moment.

A Brazilian midfield that is useless in attack, cannot pass and has no flair whatsoever and a striker that cannot get a shot, let alone on target.

If you cannot penetrate a midfield of Witsel and Fellaini, you know your midfield is shite.
 

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What a game, so glad Belgium won the game.

Belgium were too open, not surprising as Martinez can't set up to close out the game defensively. But overall they were good but made few bad decisions in the final third.

Fellaini had a very good game, just won possession so many times and proved why he should start for Belgium, which also means KdB moving to his natural position.

Hazard too had a very good game, probably best or second best player on the pitch.
 

brehme1989

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Fellaini was in fact Belgium's worst player. All he did was block some shots, sometimes only because they hit him instead of the other two guys that were standing in front of the shot.
He lost possession more times than not and to top that, he even made a dummy after a Brazil parallel pass instead kf stopping it.. Brazil had an attack after that instead of Belgium getting a clear counter chance from the middle of the pitch :lol:
Hazard was the best player on the pitch. De Bruyne was the catalyst, but not the most dangerous player.

Miranda was arguably Brazil's best player which shows how bad they actuallt were. Douglas Costa was their best player since getting on, though.
 

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ADRossi

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I just found the contrast of the two posts hilarious, that's all. I only watched ten minutes or so of the game.
 

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Miranda was a beast for keeping Lukaku under control. He had him all the way in the second half it was nice to watch. Him along with Cou and Costa when he came in were Brazil's best.
Still don't understand why Jesus was starting again and I hope to God that Casmeiro couldn't play rather than being benched for this one.
 

monster09

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Miranda was a beast for keeping Lukaku under control. He had him all the way in the second half it was nice to watch. Him along with Cou and Costa when he came in were Brazil's best.
Still don't understand why Jesus was starting again and I hope to God that Casmeiro couldn't play rather than being benched for this one.

Casemiro was suspended because of 2 yellows.
 

brehme1989

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I just found the contrast of the two posts hilarious, that's all. I only watched ten minutes or so of the game.

Well, one person says "Fellaini had a good game and shows why he should start for Belgium". Let's ignore that Belgium also has players like Nainggolan...
The other person says what Fellaini did all game long with more than just a random fucking phrase that means nothing. Anyone who watched the game knows that Fellaini was one of the worst performers for Belgium. He was lucky that he had to face Paulinho and Fernandinho who managed to be even worse.

Anyone else noticed how atrocious the touches Lukaku made in that second goal? He literally lost the ball three times and had to change his direction to keep up with it but no one was around to stop him so it led to an easy counter. He saved his only good touch for last, just before the crucial tackle. Good play by Lukaku of course, but he was lucky no one was around when the situation began. Also atrocious was the defending by Brazil in the midfield in that play.

Here's a good view of it. First touch, way off. Second touch, also off. Fourth touch, also off and felt accidental. If there was someone there, it'd stop the counter. Lukaku reacted very well after that, but it was terrible team defending in the middle by Brazil once again.
[youtube]KTbhTbekpc8[/youtube]
 

Palacio

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Fellaini was in fact Belgium's worst player. All he did was block some shots, sometimes only because they hit him instead of the other two guys that were standing in front of the shot.
He lost possession more times than not and to top that, he even made a dummy after a Brazil parallel pass instead kf stopping it.. Brazil had an attack after that instead of Belgium getting a clear counter chance from the middle of the pitch :lol:
Hazard was the best player on the pitch. De Bruyne was the catalyst, but not the most dangerous player.

Miranda was arguably Brazil's best player which shows how bad they actuallt were. Douglas Costa was their best player since getting on, though.
What I don't understand though is many of Brazil players are slow, low work rate, low physicality and shorter than 180 cm (especially its strikers and full backs). If Brazil doesn't fix this soon, I don't think it has a chance of competing with European teams.
 

brehme1989

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What I don't understand though is many of Brazil players are slow, low work rate, low physicality and shorter than 180 cm (especially its strikers and full backs). If Brazil doesn't fix this soon, I don't think it has a chance of competing with European teams.

The Brazilian league has some of these players. But they're not that great. Brazil and Argentina have become breeding farms for European top teams. And now that they can poach kids from age 15 or 18 or 20, they don't really care. They produce players that Europe wants. Unless some favela kids start coming up again, there's no chance for Brazil to recover. They need to find their identity.

Instead they're creating a player pool for the Europe's richest teams and they're stuck with the mediocrity that Europe's modern game requires. And they're not going to be better than Europeans in their own game.

You can still see how a player like Neymar can be dominant (despite his theatrics, which are overstated but never cry wolf as I mentioned earlier) but there's not enough Neymars out there. They used to have 5-10 of them within each generation. Some didn't make it far due to mentality issues, but still. Now the most talented players from Brazil that can play at a top level are:
- Neymar
- Douglas Costa
- Philippe Coutinho
- Lucas Moura
- Willian

And Lucas Moura is someone you can expect to see retiring when he's 30 because he gave up the sport before even trying. And other than Neymar, no one else is a leading player of a strong team.

Brazil, like most countries and teams, are affected by this lack of foreigner rule in Europe. A Brazilian with a Spanish or Portuguese or Italian passport can play anywhere in Europe now. Before, he only could play in his 2nd nation and if they weren't good enough, they wouldn't go to a decent team. The football academies have taken over the world and everyone is mass produced. It's all generic now. Brazil is trying to do this as well and they cannot keep up. Too many teams, not enough families can afford this, limited chances for poor kids who may have more flair, talent. But it's not just that. The foreigners rule has allowed teams to be greedy. They can sign 6 Spanish players, 5 Portuguese players, 3 Italians, 4 French, 8 Swedish and then still have room for 3 or 5 non-EU players. So they go and sign Brazilians or Argentines or African players just because they can. Before that, they had to be very careful at who to sign. It'd be 3 or 5 of anyone of those 30ish players. So money wins and Brazilians don't really have the money to compete. Or the allure.

You could tell the difference between England, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Holland, Russia, Sweden etc just by looking at them play. Now they're all trying to be the same. Some are the same. And instead of battling against this, Brazil is also trying to be part of this. You should always look to copy elements of someone else that may help you, like Brazil did with their defence and it's been fixed since 1990 (with the hiccup of 2014 with players like David freaking Luiz who was better at scoring goals than defending and fucking Dante starting).. But then you look at Brazil and it all feels wrong. Where is the #10? Where is the #9? The last great Brazil was in 2006 and everyone was out of form, with an overweight Ronaldo being the most dangerous player of the whole team. Adriano, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Robeto Carlos, Cafu, Emerson.. all out of form. It was pathetic really, you were expecting them to go very far or all the way.

So Brazil has stopped producing great strikers. Or great playmakers. They still have a few fancy players, but that's about it. Fancy, yet borderline useless. They used to have strikers that were Ballon D'Or level. They used to play with 2 up front. Now they even played a fucking 4-2-3-1... Same in 2014, with fucking Fred being their striker. At least Fred had a goal.

Brazil has guys like Hulk, Fred, Paulinho and Luiz Gustavo for years. That's a big problem. And the biggest problem is that their rivals are also suffering from this but at least they still have 2-3 world class players with each generation (Chile, Uruguay, Colombia etc). Brazil and Argentina used to have 6-7 of them, now they barely have 3.
 

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Oh dear ignoring all the context, roles and then talking about left out players. :lol:

Fellaini's role is defensive, not something like Pirlo to play nice passes.
 

monster09

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I just found the contrast of the two posts hilarious, that's all. I only watched ten minutes or so of the game.

It's fine though, EPL is shit and players are overrated. Nothing new, same boring.
 

brehme1989

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Oh dear ignoring all the context, roles and then talking about left out players. :lol:

Fellaini's role is defensive, not something like Pirlo to play nice passes.

So please tell us what did Fellaini do that was "very good".

- - - Updated - - -

Yesterday Coutino wasn't any better. I think he looked like Candreva.

Coutinho was really bad as the #10 yesterday. The Belgian defence wasn't really great and he's had that great lob to Renato Augusto but other than that, he was out of ideas and all he wanted to do was shoot the ball at a Belgian wall. There were like 5 Belgian players in front of him almost all the time when he had the ball outside the area and all the Brazilian players were left, right or behind him. And he still ends up shooting the ball at them, all the fucking time. Which is what guys like monster over here think of a "very good defensive effort" by individuals who really were bad that day. And it's also a reminder of what Coutinho would look like in Serie A.
 

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The Brazilian league has some of these players. But they're not that great. Brazil and Argentina have become breeding farms for European top teams. And now that they can poach kids from age 15 or 18 or 20, they don't really care. They produce players that Europe wants. Unless some favela kids start coming up again, there's no chance for Brazil to recover. They need to find their identity.

Instead they're creating a player pool for the Europe's richest teams and they're stuck with the mediocrity that Europe's modern game requires. And they're not going to be better than Europeans in their own game.

You can still see how a player like Neymar can be dominant (despite his theatrics, which are overstated but never cry wolf as I mentioned earlier) but there's not enough Neymars out there. They used to have 5-10 of them within each generation. Some didn't make it far due to mentality issues, but still. Now the most talented players from Brazil that can play at a top level are:
- Neymar
- Douglas Costa
- Philippe Coutinho
- Lucas Moura
- Willian

And Lucas Moura is someone you can expect to see retiring when he's 30 because he gave up the sport before even trying. And other than Neymar, no one else is a leading player of a strong team.

Brazil, like most countries and teams, are affected by this lack of foreigner rule in Europe. A Brazilian with a Spanish or Portuguese or Italian passport can play anywhere in Europe now. Before, he only could play in his 2nd nation and if they weren't good enough, they wouldn't go to a decent team. The football academies have taken over the world and everyone is mass produced. It's all generic now. Brazil is trying to do this as well and they cannot keep up. Too many teams, not enough families can afford this, limited chances for poor kids who may have more flair, talent. But it's not just that. The foreigners rule has allowed teams to be greedy. They can sign 6 Spanish players, 5 Portuguese players, 3 Italians, 4 French, 8 Swedish and then still have room for 3 or 5 non-EU players. So they go and sign Brazilians or Argentines or African players just because they can. Before that, they had to be very careful at who to sign. It'd be 3 or 5 of anyone of those 30ish players. So money wins and Brazilians don't really have the money to compete. Or the allure.

You could tell the difference between England, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Holland, Russia, Sweden etc just by looking at them play. Now they're all trying to be the same. Some are the same. And instead of battling against this, Brazil is also trying to be part of this. You should always look to copy elements of someone else that may help you, like Brazil did with their defence and it's been fixed since 1990 (with the hiccup of 2014 with players like David freaking Luiz who was better at scoring goals than defending and fucking Dante starting).. But then you look at Brazil and it all feels wrong. Where is the #10? Where is the #9? The last great Brazil was in 2006 and everyone was out of form, with an overweight Ronaldo being the most dangerous player of the whole team. Adriano, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Robeto Carlos, Cafu, Emerson.. all out of form. It was pathetic really, you were expecting them to go very far or all the way.

So Brazil has stopped producing great strikers. Or great playmakers. They still have a few fancy players, but that's about it. Fancy, yet borderline useless. They used to have strikers that were Ballon D'Or level. They used to play with 2 up front. Now they even played a fucking 4-2-3-1... Same in 2014, with fucking Fred being their striker. At least Fred had a goal.

Brazil has guys like Hulk, Fred, Paulinho and Luiz Gustavo for years. That's a big problem. And the biggest problem is that their rivals are also suffering from this but at least they still have 2-3 world class players with each generation (Chile, Uruguay, Colombia etc). Brazil and Argentina used to have 6-7 of them, now they barely have 3.

Wow, where to begin. Favela kids, "the mediocrity that Europe's modern game requires", more players playing in Europe yet Brazilians are hurt cause they somehow produce less talent this way, "generic" players!?

It's just the game has changed - better academies, better coaching, better players everywhere you look. There are no one-dimensional poachers now, or lazy creative AMs that do nothing else than through balls and just exist on the pitch to do solely that. Those aren't needed cause they're inadequate. This is why the best midfielders can do everything - attack, defend, pass, run non-stop; goalkeepers are now required to have good footwork and even be able to spread the ball, wingers are expected to help out in defense, strikers are expected to be able to combine with other players and set up goals as well, defensive midfielders are expected to be able to make a through ball and so on.

There are no shitty roll-over teams anymore, quality is just higher in 2018 than it was ten or twenty years ago. This is why Iceland can get a draw against Argentina, packed full of talent. It's just that talent isn't that important anymore, all players are "good" nowadays - physically, tactically, mentally, technically. Discipline, teamwork and intelligent coaching differentiate good teams from mediocre ones.

Coaches are better equipped - they have superior data gathering tools (like the bras players wear), superior video capture, archiving and analysis; superior statistical analysis; superior fitness and coaching staff, superior training grounds etc. Kids from favelas will do shit when they measure up against a well-prepared academy product, yeah they might have some outrageous innate talent, but only that leads you nowhere in today's game.

This is why Pele or Maradona simply can't be better than the best modern day players, this is a laughable presumption. Literally, every OTHER player right now that plays with or against Messi or CR is better. It's an entirely different playing field than it was. This is why you can't just rely on pure talent anymore like many of the past stars did. If you would bring prime Maradona to EPL now he would be nullified instantly. He would still be an amazing player, but he would find it very hard to do outrageous stuff. The gap has been significantly closed between an average and an extraordinary player.

You're saying Brazil used to have 5-10 great players each generation, then you're going ahead and listing five super talented attackers they have yourself. And there are also Miranda, Casemiro, Firmino, Alisson, Marcelo... Again, it's not about players, it's always been about how those players work as a team, especially in international tournaments.

Brazil that "stopped producing great strikers" - there aren't many great out and out "strikers" in today's game anyway. This shit is cyclical and random. Where's all the great Italian players I might ask, where's all the amazing Dutch players? And again, Brazil has a pretty amazing squad, it's not about that. Same goes for Argentina, but they clearly suffer from other factors, such as their corrupt FA, bad influences, internal fighting and inadequate coaching.

Anyway, it's a very complicated matter, but to simplify things - Brazil just aren't currently among the top teams and it's not a matter of some conspiracy bullshit you're trying to make it out to be.
 

brehme1989

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Anyway, it's a very complicated matter, but to simplify things - Brazil just aren't currently among the top teams and it's not a matter of some conspiracy bullshit you're trying to make it out to be.

Where did I say there's a conspiracy involved? I said money is involved. Brazil is trying to copy Europe. Europe as a whole has stopped breeding great talents in 15-20 years. The most talented kids usually give up the game because they're not physically strong enough. You want to call this "progress" or "the game has changed" all you want. There's no conspiracy, where do you come up with this shit..? Name me the most talented European players that came out in the last 10 years please. Don't talk to me about career success, or what their teams won, or whatever. Individual talent. It's not that hard. I said Mbappe is much more talented than Henry and people were like "Henry won everything". Who the fuck compared trophy cabinets? Sorry for the rant, but I'm just preparing you to give an answer to what is asked instead of what you'd like to be asked. So I repeat, a list of the MOST TALENTED players from Europe in the last 10 years. And I don't want to see names like Robben here, I want players that graduated from academies in the last decade.

It's not "better academies". It's academies full stop. The best talents in Europe still come from places like Croatia or the Balkans in general. They don't learn how to play in football academies, they watch great players and emulate them on the streets. The new generation learns "proper" football at academies so they are indeed generic. Everyone wants to follow the Spanish or Dutch model. So the rich Spanish teams get to produce technically precise players whilst Germans, who copied the Dutch model and have more money to polish it, have created their own generation.

All these players are fairly the same though. They're not carbon copies, but they're the best next thing. You rarely see individual brilliance any more. That's what Brazil was good at. And the "favela kid" statement was not an insult of any sort, it's just how things are. Poor neighbourhoods usually breed most of the best sports people. Football academies are a good thing for a society, but not really that great for the sporting spectacle.

People go 'wow' over a trivela or a 360 roulette ffs that occurs once every 15 games. We used to see amazing things multiple times in almost every game. That's why teams like Brazil need to go back to their own identity. The 'joga bonito' mentality.

Also, I didn't list 5 "super talented attackers". I listed their fucking downfall. If Coutinho, Willian and Douglas Costa are amongst the most talented players in the generation, you're screwed. Also, Brazil always played with 2 strikers up front. Now there's really no one to pick from.
 
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