General Football Debates

ADRossi

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After being inspired by a post by Pimp, I'm literally making this up on the fly, so bare with me.

The concept is simple. Someone poses an argument which can be a debatable opinion, a general observation, whatever. The community reads it and adds their two-cents, countering it (or agreeing with it) using whatever opinions or supporting evidence they would like. After a little while (or once the discussion dies out), the person who posed the initial question selects the person who made the best argument during the round. That "winner" then poses a new argument. Rinse, wash, repeat.

No idea if this will catch on or absolutely suck, but I'll give it a shot.

First argument:

Icardi would consistently score 20-25 goals per year if he played in La Liga
 

Javier'sSon

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Scoring 20-25 goals in La Liga is not as impressive as doing it in any of the other big leagues.
 

Shaun

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Basically every single player who scores more than 20-25 goals in La Liga is a Barca or Real Madrid player though. Is Icardi playing for one of those two sides? Than sure, he'd score more than 20 goals. Probably if they played at Atletico too. Anyway, what striker if they played for Barca and played big minutes wouldn't score 20 goals?

Could Icardi score 20 goals a season at Valencia? I think he'd get close. I think he would score at least 12-15 at most decent teams
 

ScottishInterista

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Well he scores a shit tonne in comparison to the few chances we give him here, so i dont see why not
 

thatdude

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Basically every single player who scores more than 20-25 goals in La Liga is a Barca or Real Madrid player though. Is Icardi playing for one of those two sides? Than sure, he'd score more than 20 goals. Probably if they played at Atletico too. Anyway, what striker if they played for Barca and played big minutes wouldn't score 20 goals?

Could Icardi score 20 goals a season at Valencia? I think he'd get close. I think he would score at least 12-15 at most decent teams

12-15? I think that's a little low. I think he could do 18 or so in most decent teams and over 20 in most good ones.
 

Shaun

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I said at least, and what is your definition of decent? I was talking about an Espanyol or Betis type club.
 

Kakaroto

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I don't think he would get in many line ups there Barça and Real for sure he wouldn't get in the line up. Atleti maybe but they have struggled with that type of striker recently because when you can't creat your own shot you struggle in that system, the striker is isolated in an island by himself and we have seen Icardi disappear in this situations. Don't think other teams have too much appeal for a pole striker in fact that's why he left Spain for Italy.
 

Dylan

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Llorente, Soldado
 

Kakaroto

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1 20 goal season between the two.
 

Javier'sSon

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The infamous Falcao did brilliantly with Atleti too. Honestly La Liga is similar to the Dutch league where you just can't tell the true level of a striker because of the non-existence of a defence and competition(!) as well in the league.
 

Kakaroto

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Infamous Falcao? Did you learn of Falcao when he moved to United or something? He had been banging goals for ages and was a big player at River, he moved to Europe with little fan fare because he dealt with knee injuries.
 

Wings

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The infamous Falcao did brilliantly with Atleti too. Honestly La Liga is similar to the Dutch league where you just can't tell the true level of a striker because of the non-existence of a defence and competition(!) as well in the league.

That's almost certainly not true... Barcelona and RM are definitely streaks ahead of the other teams in terms of quality (maybe except for Atletico), but that doesn't mean the other teams are bad, defensively or otherwise.
 

ADRossi

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The infamous Falcao

Infamous Falcao?

I believe this is in reference to "Falcao's Law"

Re: Icardi; is his lack of ability to play counter attacking football/be an effective dribbler a bigger issue in Spain or Italy? I would argue in Spain this would be bigger a problem.

@Javier's Son, I think you're underestimating La Liga. There is a reason they continue to do well in all European leagues. Sevilla, Bilbao, Valencia, Villarreal have all had seasons in which they were far superior to most English and German teams.

I'll pick a winner at some point tomorrow and we can see what question they pose.
 

Javier'sSon

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I think people are overlooking how La Liga as whole is badly structured. Barcelona and Madrid are leaps ahead of the pack (and in Europe), not because they as clubs are run in a great way (like Bayern), on the opposite side, they are horribly run by both sets of management and still dominate easily. That's due to the bias they receive(ed) up till now or in the past, be it from referees or the FA itself. Some might say I'm being unrealistic here or leaning to the conspiracy theories trend but that's what I believe.

Do you guys know that's it's legal for team Y (e.g. Madrid) to award money for team X (Getafe) if they won against team Z (Barca)! Now there was never a case that has gone on record but the fact that it exists is ridiculous. Moreover, people always complain about Serie A - rightfully - and how corrupt it is but neglect the fuckery that goes on in Spain (match fixing, players not getting paid etc), and that's mainly because of how bad the TV deal is and how it favours the big two. On a side note, what Atleti have been able to manage the last few years is nothing short of extraordinary. I stand by what I said that I think La Liga is a pathetic excuse of a "competitive" league.

@Javier's Son, I think you're underestimating La Liga. There is a reason they continue to do well in all European leagues. Sevilla, Bilbao, Valencia, Villarreal have all had seasons in which they were far superior to most English and German teams.

Now as I mentioned what Atleti has done in Europe is amazing, but when looking at the EL I don't think it says anything about the strength of the Spanish teams or their league. What it does tell me is that Spanish clubs like Sevilla and those of similar caliber who have done well in recent years reaching the latter stages of the competition, have done so just because they don't care about the league and know it's highly unlikely for them to do anything, resting players in the league for the EL only happens in Spain. Fuckin Sevilla have won their third EL title in a row having not managed a single away win all season! :chan:
 
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Dylan

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Re: Icardi; is his lack of ability to play counter attacking football/be an effective dribbler a bigger issue in Spain or Italy? I would argue in Spain this would be bigger a problem.

I don't think Icardi can't play counter attacking. His goal vs Sampdoria I think proves that.
 

Wings

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I think people are overlooking how La Liga as whole is badly structured. Barcelona and Madrid are leaps ahead of the pack (and in Europe), not because they as clubs are run in a great way (like Bayern), on the opposite side, they are horribly run by both sets of management and still dominate easily. That's due to the bias they receive(ed) up till now or in the past, be it from referees or the FA itself. Some might say I'm being unrealistic here or leaning to the conspiracy theories trend but that's what I believe.

Do you guys know that's it's legal for team Y (e.g. Madrid) to award money for team X (Getafe) if they won against team Z (Barca)! Now there was never a case that has gone on record but the fact that it exists is ridiculous. Moreover, people always complain about Serie A - rightfully - and how corrupt it is but neglect the fuckery that goes on in Spain (match fixing, players not getting paid etc), and that's mainly because of how bad the TV deal is and how it favours the big two. On a side note, what Atleti have been able to manage the last few years is nothing short of extraordinary. I stand by what I said that I think La Liga is a pathetic excuse of a "competitive" league.



Now as I mentioned what Atleti has done in Europe is amazing, but when looking at the EL I don't think it says anything about the strength of the Spanish teams or their league. What it does tell me is that Spanish clubs like Sevilla and those of similar caliber who have done well in recent years reaching the latter stages of the competition, have done so just because they don't care about the league and know it's highly unlikely for them to do anything, resting players in the league for the EL only happens in Spain. Fuckin Sevilla have won their third EL title in a row having not managed a single away win all season! :chan:

Source for the bold? (curiosity)

You attribute RM and Barcelona's dominance to conspiracies, but isn't it more likely that footballing dominance and referee help is caused by the TV money? I don't think it's a surprise that big teams across Europe are accused of refereeing help, because referees are humans and subconsciously inclined to favor big teams, even if there is no corruption. Hopefully things will be more equal with the new TV deal La Liga has signed.

As for the EL...it's the classic 'it's only because they care more about EL' argument. What makes you think Sevilla didn't care about La Liga at all? Even if they can't win the title, surely there's still an incentive in 4th place? Emery finished 3rd place for consecutive seasons as Valencia's manager – do you really think he cares only about EL and not at all about La Liga? Ridiculous argument. Did you think he didn't care about La Liga when he finished one point off CL spots last season while winning EL? Do you think Villarreal didn't care about La Liga despite qualifying for CL and making it to EL semifinals? Do you think Athletic Bilbao didn't care about La Liga despite finishing 2 points off CL spots and bowing out in EL quarterfinals on penalties?

You claim that Sevilla winning EL despite finishing 7th in Spain is proof that they only cared about EL. I see the opposite. What does it say about the rest of Europe that a side that finishes only 7th in Spain can do so well in Europe?

Maybe you are right that the basement dwellers in Spain are worse than those in Italy. I don't really have anything to say otherwise. But the data clearly suggest that when it comes to 1st~7th place teams or so, La Liga is miles ahead of other leagues in terms of quality. Hardly something like Eredivisie.
 

ADRossi

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I'll go ahead and give this round to Wings. Your turn.
 

Javier'sSon

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Source for the bold? (curiosity)

I've heard about it on a podcast and after googling it seems like it's illegal but is a hot topic quite an issue in Spain (with obvious denying from the parties involved). It does support my point that people overlook the integrity of the league when even you haven't even heard about it before.

http://www.espnfc.com/spanish-prime...ments-after-levantes-win-over-atletico-madrid

But the data clearly suggest that when it comes to 1st~7th place teams or so

No it does not, it only suggests a micro perspective (a team's case) rather than macro (the league) or whatever angle you're viewing it from. Kudos to you for looking up examples and strengthening your argument, I'm sure I could nitpick some of them and provide some of my own to support my side of the argument but I'm not going to because I'm a sexy, lazy bastard.

La Liga is miles ahead of other leagues in terms of quality. Hardly something like Eredivisie.

I did not say anything or compare between the quality of said leagues. I did say that they're both similar on how misleading strikers or goal-scores (usually strikers) and their stats could be because of the disparity in strength between the big two and the rest (most of the rest if you want to be specific) and the lack of defensive organisation. I might have exaggerated in saying the defence is non existent but compared to the other big leagues I'd comfortably say it's quite shite.
 

crzdcolombian

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Infamous Falcao? Did you learn of Falcao when he moved to United or something? He had been banging goals for ages and was a big player at River, he moved to Europe with little fan fare because he dealt with knee injuries.

Raneri broke him at Monaco because they were going to get eliminated from the French cup by a fking 4th division team. Some fking carpenter who wasn't even a semi pro player shattered the dudes leg. Monaco lost 60 million euros on the player + 15 million euro a season on his wages because their brilliant coach is a fing retard!!!

As for player not scoring a lot in our league. Did Higuan ever score 35 in Spain?
 

Dylan

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You can't blame Ranieri for playing one of his players. That could have happened in any game.
 
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