Where are all the Legendary defenders?

Inter7

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
4,913
Likes
453
Favorite Player
Kova Magic
10 years of FIF
This topic arose recently when I was having a conversation with my friend who loves Serie A we discussed a player like Maldini who was 17 when he started playing at our rivals team.

I began to wonder what happened to all the legendary defender? and why are we not seeing players like this come through the academies now in days?

I can not think of one youngster in any Serie A team who has a defender between the ages of 17-19 ready to start.

If I am not mistaken the most talented youngster people are talking about is Daniele Rugiani who plays at Empoli is 20 years old and is owned by Juventus. (Im sure browha can help me here)

The legendary names of the past such as: (and this is no particular order some of which I have taken from bleacher report)

Giuseppe Favalli*
Christian Panucci
Mauro Tassotti
Alessandro Costacurta
Fulvio Collovati*
Aristide Guarnieri*
Tarcisio Burgnich*
Giuseppe Bergomi*
Giacinto Facchetti*
Fabio Cannavaro*
Alessandro Nesta
Franco Baresi
Gaetano Scirea

the players with * played at Inter at some point in their careers.

Inters history is so rich with defenders I didnt even mention Matrix one of my own favorites! It makes me sad to know how the art of defending and the legendary Italian defenders of the past no longer exist in Serie A today

What do you guys think about this subject?
 

Kraits

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
1,474
Likes
26
Favorite Player
10
10 years of FIF
At some point of time.. rano, bonucci and ogbonna looked positive.. but never reached that stage.. don't think will
 

J..

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
4,136
Likes
500
Favorite Player
Eriksen
Old username
Jrg
Forum Supporter
10 years of FIF
Romas Alessio Romagnoli could be great in the future.
 

I4E

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Messages
12,452
Likes
76
Favorite Player
₩€$£€¥
Forum Supporter
10 years of FIF
When the flood gates opened up for foreigners, then so did the production line of the Italian defenders end.
 
Last edited:

thatdude

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
19,726
Likes
9,969
10 years of FIF
FIF Special Ones
I think a lot of this has to do with the general state of Italian football and the fact that the majority of teams don't perform at a world class level. Perhaps Ogbonna, Ranocchia, Santacrocce could have been viewed as world class 10-15 years ago when Serie A teams were better, and thus went deeper in European competition etc. Back then Serie A teams had better structure/stability, which allowed them to integrate and improve players. Oh yeah, and they had money, great strikers and midfielders take pressure off the defenders. That's why people considered Pique world class until his midfield support diminished and he was exposed, that's why people view Jerome Boateng as world class now.

A lot of this stuff is just perception, if Serie A teams were better all around you would see more talk about the world class defenders.
 

Lui

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
4,785
Likes
122
Favorite Player
Squad Depth
Its relative, i think. In twenty years when i see a striker score a goal, ill be saying "man, no way he scores that goal if the legend ranocchia was marking him".
 

Wallace

Marotta FC
La Grande Inter
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
14,190
Likes
19
Favorite Player
Marotta
Old username
Wallace
Forum Supporter
10 years of FIF
Lol, good joke.
 

ADRossi

Administrator
Administrator
Joined
Jul 17, 2010
Messages
18,955
Likes
19,890
10 years of FIF
Forum Supporter
Serie A players as a whole aren't as good as they used to be. The entire Italian national team, it's youth teams, and the system are lacking talent.

I've been saying for a while in the Italian NT thread that the future looks bleak; this is the worst generation of young Italian players since I've been born (mind you that isn't too long). It's not just defense. Who are the next great Italian midfielders aside from Verratti? Where are the fantastic Italian strikers on the horizon?

The entire system is broken.
 

victor_inter

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
1,130
Likes
0
Favorite Player
samuel etoo
10 years of FIF
immobile, zaza, berrardi, sharawwy, insinge, cerci, candreva. wow. world class italian players lawl.
 

.h.

Part time Lazarus
La Grande Inter
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Messages
29,235
Likes
7,253
Favorite Player
Inter1-0Wanda
Old username
browha
Forum Supporter
10 years of FIF
what worries me is the failure of our exports
look at immobile, look at cerci, balotelli, etc. all these guys we sold for big money (we as a league) in the summer have utterly failed abroad too
 

thatdude

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
19,726
Likes
9,969
10 years of FIF
FIF Special Ones
I just wonder if that has something to do with them being coddled in Italy? Specifically Balotelli. I don't know, I have also thought about that recently though. I think Cerci is a good player but probably not the best fit for Atletico. Immobile can still be a success long term IMO. However, Balotelli is probably a lost case.
 

Fapuccino

La Grande Inter
La Grande Inter
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
15,123
Likes
909
Favorite Player
Schelotto
The lack of good defenders is not really a problem specific to Italy alone. Those Maldini types of players just don't exist any more anywhere.

When the flood gates opened up for foreigners, then so did the production line of the Italian defenders end.

Most coaches like Sacchi, Capello, etc... have said the problem is beating tactics to death at youth levels, rather than focusing on individual ability. This filters out all players who don't fit those tactics.

You can ban all the foreigners, and give guys like Poli all the play time that they want, but they will never turn into Pirlo. The youth players just aren't good enough.
 

bandiera

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
Jul 8, 2014
Messages
4,642
Likes
155
there are 4 main components to the answer to your question. the first is nostalgia, the second is perception, the third is tactics, and the fourth is the general decline of italian football.

firstly, we look back at older players with nostalgia. someone like zambrotta, for example, is regarded as a legend in milanista circles especially when they fall witness to bonera, abate, and armero fucking up on a weekly basis. another example is the "football is shit nowadays" argument; although it has some merits, it's hardly true. so players like favalli, tassotti, panucci, costacurta are wrongfully classed in the same league as facchetti, maldini, baresi, gentile, bergomi who are truly one of a kind. we naturally inflate players/teams from the past (eg. Recoba, Adriano, even the "Maicon would have been as good as he is now had he stayed" argument)

secondly, perception is the point thatdude touched on. the quality of the team can affect the perceived quality of the defender. put a mediocre defender next to thiago silva covered by arturo vidal, and he won't necessarily look mediocre. why pique looked world class in 2011 and boateng looks world class now. a more relate able example could be leonardo bonucci of juventus, who makes mistakes on a regular basis but is almost always covered by pogba, marchisio, chiellini, and ogbonna.

so jankulovski and oddo look top class alongside nesta and maldini, covered by ambrosini, gattuso, and seedorf. or tudor, tacchinardi look world class next to ferrara thuram and montero behind conte, zambrotta, camoranesi, davids. or costacurta looks to be on the level of maldini, nesta, bergomi, facchetti etc next to baresi,maldini.

thirdly, tactics. this is arguably the most overlooked point. fap already noted those maldini-types dont exist anymore, not only in italy. why? well what changes has defending undergone over the last 10-20 years? the emergence of zonal marking over man marking with sacchi's revolutionary ac milan side...

I think players like rano but especially juan jesus would have been world class 20 years ago. why? man marking isn't about positional awareness, but being able to tackle your man whenever they have the ball. one on one, juan is a pretty strong defender. rano's tackling technique isn't bad either. rano's problem lies in his lapses in concentration (forgetting to mark certain players in certain zones), while juan's positioning is hilariously poor. both of those issues, however, would be rendered meaningless if they stayed with their man and didn't think about where and who to mark.

being an effective defender in a zonal marking scheme is less about physicality and more about intelligence and the ability to read the play - which is the unifying trait of every current world class defender. players like burgnich, bergomi, gentile may not have been as successful if they had to zonally mark instead.. conversely, players like lahm or toulalan may not have been as effective if they had to man mark instead.

the last and final point deals with the decline of italian football. a combination of poor youth academies (little coherence/structure in youth training, outdated tactics), more foreign imports/reluctance to play young players (risk current results for the future in a time when serie a was the most competitive league in the world), pressure (from fans, italian media), bad style of play for youth development (defensive), lack of investment in youth academies etc...


also, regarding poor exports: even when serie a was at its peak, what italian player did well out of serie a? barely any - with zola and ravanelli the only two that come to mind. i think it's because of the fairly large cultural difference between italy and the rest of europe. you could compare english players not playing in italy and a number of them doing poorly. italian players don't like leaving italy and its culture, hence why not many have done it in the past.

for example, some italian friends of mine say a lot of italian players are pussies because they hog around their mothers with them everywhere (buffon, nesta), and they're coddled with that family support they wouldn't be able to get if they played in, say, Dortmund or London.
 
Last edited:

J..

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
4,136
Likes
500
Favorite Player
Eriksen
Old username
Jrg
Forum Supporter
10 years of FIF
Great post bandiera!
 

.h.

Part time Lazarus
La Grande Inter
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Messages
29,235
Likes
7,253
Favorite Player
Inter1-0Wanda
Old username
browha
Forum Supporter
10 years of FIF
Regarding exports, though

look at someone like Cannavaro, or Toni, there are at least a few italian players in recent history who have been big price leavers who have done well abroad. It's not like Cerci and Immobile are doing badly. They're not even playing much. There's a big difference, tbh. And its a bit worrisome that some of the best younger talents we can produce can barely even get a game, let alone play well.
 

victor_inter

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
1,130
Likes
0
Favorite Player
samuel etoo
10 years of FIF
great post bandeira. Spot on.
 

thatdude

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
19,726
Likes
9,969
10 years of FIF
FIF Special Ones
I think one thing that hasn't been touched on yet is also change in our society. With social media and traditional media presence at an all time high, people scrutinize every aspect of a players performance and personality regularly. Fans and people who aren't fans especially now also have a platform that was not available to earlier generations. Thus public opinion is now shaped differently than it was 20 years ago.
 

Wings

Capitano
Capitano
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
3,768
Likes
95
10 years of FIF
When the flood gates opened up for foreigners, then so did the production line of the Italian defenders end.

I think that's misleading. It's not like the foreigners who are coming in are world class either.
 

I4E

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Messages
12,452
Likes
76
Favorite Player
₩€$£€¥
Forum Supporter
10 years of FIF
I think that's misleading. It's not like the foreigners who are coming in are world class either.

It's not misleading at all. There is a lot of rubbish-to-average defenders in Serie A that are foreigners. These players are taking up spots in place of the Italians and pushing them into lower clubs or Serie B. It is ridiculous to think that Italy doesn't have players (youth) that could be groomed & developed into very good defenders.

I'm not suggesting that the problem is just with defenders either, Italy has issues across the whole field. The infatuation with foreigners is killing Italy and Italian players. The alarming problem is the poor quality of foreigners.
 

Fapuccino

La Grande Inter
La Grande Inter
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
15,123
Likes
909
Favorite Player
Schelotto
It is ridiculous to think that Italy doesn't have players (youth) that could be groomed & developed into very good defenders.

You're crazy if you think guys like Destro or whatever can turn into Tottis. The youth players simply aren't talented enough. Even with defenders, Maldini was 21 when Milan beat Madrid 5-0 in European Cup. There are 0 defenders with anywhere his potential today.

Germany and Belgium revamped their entire youth system, invested upwards of 700 million euros into grassroots and youth since 2001. Complete infrastructure change top to bottom for youth teams. Started teaching basic skills to kids and drilling it into them. What has Italy done? Jacked off. That's why those talents are non-existent. Read Rapha Honistein's article on German youth transformation, and see why Italy has no great talents.
 
Top